Panetta: Someone in Pakistan knew about bin Laden's hideout

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Were the remaining houses in the area subjected to 'sterilization drives'? How often and of what kind?

This house was not the only civilian residence around the academy or in the flight path of VIP visitors to the academy - see image below:
Why, out of all those houses, should this one have been searched, and were all of the rest searched/sterilized?

I find it hard to believe that these houses pointed out in the image were not examined/sterilized. Its a standard protocol for any high level dignitary visit specially when security situation is what it is in Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Easy. The ISI was told to shelter OBL dead or alive but the bosses didn't want to know details. They could thus tell the U.S. they didn't know where OBL was or even if he was alive with a cleaner conscience.

Completely paranoid and nonsensical speculation.

If the goal was to keep OBL hidden, any intelligence passed on to the US would have still been parsed/cleansed to keep OBL hidden, by those in the know, regardless of whether the 'bosses' knew or not.

Perhaps the ISI didn't realize what the U.S. could eventually do with such information.

Perhaps Americans should start taking some medication to stop believing in delusional, paranoid conspiracy theories?

Ah, the games Pakistanis play because they are under the guns of terrorists! The confusion! Such courage displayed by the political class...how can one teach a nation courage? Clearly it isn't enough to give them weapons or enable its leaders with wealth.

Done ranting?

With relations this bad, the US still has absolutely no evidence to offer to support its delusional, paranoid conspiracy theories of 'someone in Pakistan had to have known'.

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

Easily possible, there would be few people in ISI who might know OBL's hiding the other person passing the information might not be one of them. Very much possible scenario and AM it sounds more convencing that someone was sheltering him.

If people in the ISI were sheltering OBL without official sanction, then it is possible, if they were hiding him with official sanction, then it is not possible, since the ISI would pretty much scrub ANY intelligence related to OBL, instead of passing it to the US.

Again, 'easily possible' is just another way to say 'speculation, conspiracy theory' - there is more 'circumstantial evidence' that the CIA/Mossad carried out the 9/11 attacks through AQ.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I find it hard to believe that these houses pointed out in the image were not examined/sterilized. Its a standard protocol for any high level dignitary visit specially when security situation is what it is in Pakistan

If they are sterilized, it should be easy enough to verify should it not?

Yet none of the reports from Abbottabad (from other residents) indicate such a thing happened.

Nawaz Sharif's personal residence is a few blocks from my parents home in Lahore - yet neither our home nor those of our neighbors were 'sterilized' when he was PM.

Given the population density in Pakistan, it is simply not feasible to 'sterilize' every home in the flight path of a VIP chopper or around a military academy.

Had this been a nuclear weapons/R&D facility, I might agree.

BTW, how is it that short range rockets were fired at the Academy, if the area security is so 'air-tight'?

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

If they are sterilized, it should be easy enough to verify should it not?
Yet none of the reports from Abbottabad (from other residents) indicate such a thing happened.

Dont understand how?? If a govt agency verifies the status of residents in a given house, how would that be verified by you or me sitting here on the net?

Nawaz Sharif's personal residence is a few blocks from my parents home in Lahore - yet neither our home nor those of our neighbors were 'sterilized' when he was PM.

And you know this how?? Verification may not always be by police banging on your doors and asking you to produce your ID cards

Given the population density in Pakistan, it is simply not feasible to 'sterilize' every home in the flight path of a VIP chopper or around a military academy.

Dont think the population of say a 2-3 km radius in Abbotabad is that high, given that most of the houses in that area are huge bunglows of ex army officers and other influential people .

Had this been a nuclear weapons/R&D facility, I might agree.

I am sure you would have used the comparison with a Military garrison/training academy before this incident.

BTW, how is it that short range rockets were fired at the Academy, if the area security is so 'air-tight'?

Strawman... Such attacks dont prove the lack of security.. Unless you want to claim that PA GHQ and Mehran Base were alos low security areas..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not nonsense. Remember what Jinnah said when informed that Pakistani-supported warriors were attacking Indians? He told the messenger to shut up so he could keep his conscience clean.

And do you have any evidence suggesting that the Kayani, Pasha, Musharraf or Zardari made any such statement, leave alone the fact that the veracity of the incident attributed to Jinnah is contested as well?

Given US history of supporting genocidal regimes and tyrants and carrying out massacres of innocents, there is a lot one could extrapolate and apply to the US leadership as well, when it comes to arguing US complicity and knowledge about war crimes and criminal massacres by US forces and intelligence agencies - but it remains speculation.

Is it your belief someone was punished for failing to do so or is covering up such a failure or that such a failure could never happen?

It is my belief that no such thing happened, and your entire argument is a paranoid, delusional conspiracy theory, and your complete inability to offer any evidence or facts to support your position.

It would take a lot of medication to convince U.S. leaders that the Pakistani Army isn't engaged in dirty deeds like killing Pakistani journalists.

I agree - only a LACK OF medication can explain the propensity of the US leadership to advance unsubstantiated, paranoid, delusional conspiracy theories to argue institutional Pakistani complicity in hiding OBL.

That's not the measurement. The measurement is what steps Pakistan has taken to publicly investigate its own culpability. Big fail there.

The ability to substantiate an allegation/accusation is ALWAYS the measurement - Pakistan cannot investigate something that did not happen - if no one was complicit as strongly appears given the lack of evidence indicating otherwise, an investigation into alleged complicity will bring up nothing.

What evidence does the US/you have to support allegations against the ISI/PA?

Big Fail delusions and paranoia on your part again.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dont understand how?? If a govt agency verifies the status of residents in a given house, how would that be verified by you or me sitting here on the net?

HOW the government verified the status of residents in any particular residence is what is important here:

1. They verified by checking the property records: The property records were legitimate. The owners were legal and had been investigated.

2. They physically inspected the property once ownership changed hands: Again, the owners at the time of the raid had been investigated, and the property had in fact been raided early on in its construction. OBL was not there at that time and there was nothing to indicate he would be there.

3. The GoP verified status through periodic physical raids/inspections: This would really be the only way to argue that the GoP could not have missed OBL, and someone knew he was there - this is also what I am referring to when I argue that such raids, conducted on hundreds, if not thousands of neighboring residences, businesses should be easily verifiable through talking to the residents.

And you know this how?? Verification may not always be by police banging on your doors and asking you to produce your ID cards

And how else would they verify, and how would that particular means of verification have resulted in knowing OBL was in the compound?

Dont think the population of say a 2-3 km radius in Abbotabad is that high, given that most of the houses in that area are huge bunglows of ex army officers and other influential people .

The image I posted shows a pretty densely packed area - and again, how exactly would 'sterilization' have taken place?

I am sure you would have used the comparison with a Military garrison/training academy before this incident.

Actually, the fact that terrorists have been able to get as close as the gates of GHQ/Mehran base (and in fact get inside) with weapons and suicide vests would indicate that the surrounding areas are not as 'sterilized' and 'air tight' as you are trying to make them out to be.

Strawman... Such attacks dont prove the lack of security.. Unless you want to claim that PA GHQ and Mehran Base were alos low security areas..

The security is mostly in the immediate perimeter - it obviously does not involve the surrounding residential areas to the extent that the identity of every single actual resident would be known.

The only way to maintain an airtight 2-3KM perimeter would be to relocate all residents and civilian structures from there.

 

[Luffy 500]

Don't tell me PAK believes that Bin laden was indeed in PAK. Only intellectually bankrupt individuals will believe in the US hogwash
crap of Abottabad raid. There was no bin laden in PAK to begin with. The retarded yanks did not show any proof.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

HOW the government verified the status of residents in any particular residence is what is important here:

1. They verified by checking the property records: The property records were legitimate. The owners were legal and had been investigated.

2. They physically inspected the property once ownership changed hands: Again, the owners at the time of the raid had been investigated, and the property had in fact been raided early on in its construction. OBL was not there at that time and there was nothing to indicate he would be there.

3. The GoP verified status through periodic physical raids/inspections: This would really be the only way to argue that the GoP could not have missed OBL, and someone knew he was there - this is also what I am referring to when I argue that such raids, conducted on hundreds, if not thousands of neighboring residences, businesses should be easily verifiable through talking to the residents.

Well, I would think that like any other process of elimination, you would begin with ruling out non probables.. The remaining would get a sterner level of investigation throwing up probable security risks that would entail covert surveillance and finally a physical review. I thought all security agencies across the world use these funneling techniques to sterilize an area of interest. And not just leave it to God. Specially when prime targets like COAS are visiting the area often,

And how else would they verify, and how would that particular means of verification have resulted in knowing OBL was in the compound?

The same way Americans ended up concluding that..Surveillance and humint

The image I posted shows a pretty densely packed area - and again, how exactly would 'sterilization' have taken place?

I count a couple hundred buildings in there.. Are you saying PA doesnt consider it to be worth it to sterilize an area within a stone's throw from its largest military academy, because it entails verifying a couple hundred buildings..

Actually, the fact that terrorists have been able to get as close as the gates of GHQ/Mehran base (and in fact get inside) with weapons and suicide vests would indicate that the surrounding areas are not as 'sterilized' and 'air tight' as you are trying to make them out to be.

The security is mostly in the immediate perimeter - it obviously does not involve the surrounding residential areas to the extent that the identity of every single actual resident would be known.

The only way to maintain an airtight 2-3KM perimeter would be to relocate all residents and civilian structures from there.

So you are going with the incompetent argument here? Because your argument here seems to be that PA is not able to secure even its GHQ and air bases, and hence OBL living near its military academy could very well be a similar result of incompetence and hence not complicity.

Somehow, that doesnt sit well in my view..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, I would think that like any other process of elimination, you would begin with ruling out non probables.. The remaining would get a sterner level of investigation throwing up probable security risks that would entail covert surveillance and finally a physical review. I thought all security agencies across the world use these funneling techniques to sterilize an area of interest. And not just leave it to God. Specially when prime targets like COAS are visiting the area often,

What kind of 'process of elimination' was supposed to be applied here?

You are dodging the question about exactly what kind of 'sanitization process' you expected to be done here.

The same way Americans ended up concluding that..Surveillance and humint

The US had round the clock surveillance for months on that compound specifically, based on intelligence they developed from information provided by Pakistan - even then, as the US has itself admitted, they were only around 40 to 50% certain that OBL was residing there.

So why exactly should Pakistan have put that kind of humint and surveillance on that compound in particular?

I count a couple hundred buildings in there.. Are you saying PA doesnt consider it to be worth it to sterilize an area within a stone's throw from its largest military academy, because it entails verifying a couple hundred buildings..

How exactly do you want the PA to sterilize the area - answer that question first please, and then we can determine whether the process you say should have been used/was used would have indicated that OBL was present.

So you are going with the incompetent argument here? Because your argument here seems to be that PA is not able to secure even its GHQ and air bases, and hence OBL living near its military academy could very well be a similar result of incompetence and hence not complicity.

I am pointing out that outside of relocating all residents from the '2 to 3KM radius' you want sanitized and barricading it, there is no way to make security air-tight.

From a security POV, the residence of potential insurgents in the vicinity itself is not the main threat to the Academy - it is the ability of terrorists to launch attacks INTO the Academy/GHQ/Base that is the threat, and to do that the terrorists do not need a residence close to the Academy - they just need the ability to travel to the entrance/walls of the Academy/GHQ/Base and launch their attack.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

What kind of 'process of elimination' was supposed to be applied here?

You are dodging the question about exactly what kind of 'sanitization process' you expected to be done here.

Exactly the process security agencies are supposed to follow in clearing an area prior to a HVT visit. Now if you expect me to know the protocols of PA/ISI/Pakistani police in this regard, I am sorry but I am not aware of these.

The US had round the clock surveillance for months on that compound specifically, based on intelligence they developed from information provided by Pakistan - even then, as the US has itself admitted, they were only around 40 to 50% certain that OBL was residing there.

So why exactly should Pakistan have put that kind of humint and surveillance on that compound in particular?

So what was different that USA had that Pakistan did not.. Why did USA put those resources there if the information they had was the same which ISI had in the 1st place.

 

[fd24]

Newsline: US Embassy counters Defence Secretary’s statements

The US Embassy in Islamabad issued a statement on Sunday countering Defence Secretary Leon Panetta’s statement about Pakistani officials being aware of Osama bin Laden’s hideout. Defense Department spokesman George Little, in the statement, clarified that Panetta’s interview aired by CBS was old and was recorded at the time when the Defence Ministry was unsure whether the Bin Laden network was present in Pakistan or not. Little further said that Panetta, in the same interview, had also said that there was no proof that Pakistani government and the higher authorities were aware of Bin Laden’s whereabouts. He added that Panetta, along with other officials, are working for the betterment of ties with Pakistan that were strained after the US operation in Abbottabad that killed al Qaeda chief Bin Laden on May 2. In an interview with CBS’s “60 Minutes”, Panetta said that he still believed someone in authority in Pakistan knew where Bin Laden was hiding before US forces went in to find him.

Newsline: US Embassy counters Defence Secretary’s statements « Diplomatic Briefing

I think the validity of what the US say through their representatives is not believable. Im really at the stage of not believing anything they come out with.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@AbhimanyuShrivastav


you highlighted the most ridicules part of his argument in red lol I like that.
Because the helicopters flew over the compound so they knew about it. Wow
It had army setup there well before the partition …

How many US helicopters fly over Kabul yet there are assassinations and bomb blasts? Question is is were those helicopters simply transporting people and goods or actually looking for bin laden with his goats hiding in the caller? The 911 terrorists trained for about 6 months and then banged their planes over the span of 2 hours while NSA, CIA, FBI and what not sat on their behinds. Can Panetta count how many helicopters flew past the terrorists residence?


Just to top it off Panetta says someone must have known because the walls were too high!!!

For the last time I must tell all goons who are not familiar with the tribal housing architecture..
We have very high boundary walls with a front cabin that serves as a watch tower . Once you are allowed into the houses you don’t get to the residential area but an open space and 2 or 3 rooms quarters for the visitors . This is where we park our vehicles, keep our animals like horses or cattle etc and then there is another gate which leads to the residential area

The former CIA chief must bring up some hard evidence or shut the hell up. We already admitted that it was an intelligence failure. He would have moved into this property when over a million people were displaced and then moved back to Sawat after our biggest inland operation. The property even remained empty few times.

Then the ridicules suggestion that maybe lower or middle level of people knew about him and were looking after him. People blinded with hatred for Pakistan and little to no military background might buy it but the fact is that middle to lower level ranks don’t stay at one station for more than few years and are moved out with no control or say who is going to replace them. So if the top leadership didn’t know then there was no chance that one certain brigadier or a colonel would have been able to keep it a secret.

Panetta did a good job of finding **** in the OBL’s belongings I think now he should prioritise and see if there was any reference or suggestion that Kyani or Musharraf or Zardari were sending OBL fruit baskets and vitamin supplements?

And if indeed we were hosting that rat then we are ashamed because his living conditions were pathetic and dismal. We are excellent hosts and give up our own food and bed to the guests. Looking at that place was a sobering experience. The world’s most wanted man living on some vegetables and chicken in trash and killed in his pyjamas.

Hehe we were smart enough not to have any military or ISI guarding him but were foolish enough to fly helicopters over his residence…….. ha-ha

What for? To see how the ceiling should look like if this building is attacked? Or suggest OBL the perfect sport to fix his satellite dish?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

So what was different that USA had that Pakistan did not.. Why did USA put those resources there if the information they had was the same which ISI had in the 1st place.

dear master of circular arguments.
USA had intel that was based from outside Paksitan too. they were the ones who were trailing the couriers. that’s the kind of information they decided to keep to themselves. They had a list of highly probable’s and the initial cursory or detailed surveillance from ISI helped them to narrow down the list and validate the pattern they drew and thus they launched their fake vaccination operations.

Point is.. They kept their side of information from ISI but were happy to get whatever ISI found out.
ISI provides the ground intelligence that’s what CIA lacks. CIA has the technology at its disposal and operates beyond the Pakistani boundaries too.

So to answer your innocent question, they had more information than the ISI because the courier was the one who was going around and passing information and directives to other couriers who were taking it to people in Afghanistan and elsewhere. And that information was not shared with ISI.

When a similar face is identified in different places that arouses suspicion but only when all such places are within the domain of the surveillance agency.

Still didn’t get it? don’t worry about it
If it was that easy then Osama might have died in Afghanistan when the American UAV identified him but Clinton was probing Monica back then.

 

[Hulk]

@AM ISI had the ability to search the compound as the territory belonged to them, it was harder for US.

@Irfan Abhimanyu was dismissive not supportive of helicopter argument, you did not read him completely.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@AM ISI had the ability to search the compound as the territory belonged to them, it was harder for US.

But why would the ISI search that particular compound, out of the thousands surrounding the PMA Kakul, which BTW, is not just the small structure in the map, but covers a very large area?

Also, the location of the compound is incorrect on that map. I'll upload a more accurate one later.