Pakistan's War: Now is The Time or Forever Hold Your Peace

[MastanKhan]

T-FAZ,

Thank you for your post----hate and anger blinds my countrymen from seeing ther obvious----. Pakistanis were complaining in the late 90's about the mig 25 flights over pakistan---and they had no response to it.

But no one wanted to tell them that pakistan has done that to india in the late 60's----the canberra electric bomber converted to ew was donated by the americans----this plane could fly at an altitude of 80 thousand feet----with space suits-----which the pakistani pilots didnot wear because they were cumbersome to operate in---. How many times this plane flew over india---only the paf knows----but we all know that our great air force let it sit on the tarmac during the 71 war and let it burn on the air field after the iaf strike-----.

So---how often has the americans helped us----more often that others would let us believe in. We are possibly the only country in the world---to protect it the american president hinted on using the nuclear option on our opponent.

Open you minds young pakistanis----your parents have been lying to you through all these years.

 

[T-Rex]

America helped us in developing our Nuclear program.
November 1975: CIA Instructs Dutch Not to Arrest A. Q. Khan over Passage of Nuclear Secrets; Khan Flees to Pakistan

After the BVD, a Dutch intelligence agency, informs the CIA that it intends to arrest A. Q. Khan over the passage of nuclear secrets to Pakistan (see Mid-October 1975), the CIA tells the Dutch to let Khan continue with his activities. Former Dutch Minister of Economc Affairs Ruud Lubbers will say, “The Americans wished to follow and watch Khan to get more information.” Lubbers questions this and the CIA tells him to block Khan’s access to the secrets, which the Dutch do by promoting him to a job where he no longer has access to sensitive data from the uranium enrichment company Urenco. Lubbers will later suggest that the real reason the US does not want Khan arrested is because of its interest in helping Pakistan, an enemy of Soviet-leaning India. Because Khan no longer has access to the sensitive data after his promotion, the CIA cannot find out anything by monitoring him. In addition, the promotion alerts Khan to the fact he may be under surveillance, and he flees to Pakistan in mid-December. Authors David Armstrong and Joe Trento will later comment: “What no one yet realized was that Khan had already absconded with the plans for almost every centrifuge on Urenco’s drawing board, including the all-important G-2 [centrifuge]. It would prove to be one of the greatest nuclear heists of all time.” [ARMSTRONG AND TRENTO, 2007, PP. 54]
December 26, 1979: Memo to President Carter Gives Pakistan Green Light to Pursue Nuclear Weapons Program

National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski writes a memo to President Jimmy Carter about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which has just begun (see December 8, 1979). Brzezinski focuses on fears that success in Afghanistan could give the Soviets access to the Indian Ocean, even though Afghanistan is a landlocked country. He suggests the US should continue aid to the Afghan mujaheddin, which actually began before the war and spurred the Soviets to invade (see 1978 and July 3, 1979). He says, “This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels and some technical advice.” He does not give any warning that such aid will strengthen Islamic fundamentalism. He also concludes, “[W]e must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid, and alas, a decision that our security problem toward Pakistan cannot be dictated by our nonproliferation policy.” Carter apparently accepts Brzezinski’s advice. Author Joe Trento will later comment, “With that, the United States agreed to let a country admittedly in turmoil proceed to develop nuclear weapons.” [TRENTO, 2005, PP. 167-168] Trento and fellow author David Armstrong will add: “Once [Pakistan] became a partner in the anti-Soviet Afghan campaign and the Carter administration adopted a more lenient view of Pakistan’s nuclear activities, the [procurement] network [run by A. Q. Khan] expanded its operations dramatically. It would soon evolve into a truly global enterprise, obtaining the vast array of sophisticated equipment with which Pakistan would eventually build a bomb.” [ARMSTRONG AND TRENTO, 2007, PP. 99]
October 1980: Former President Nixon Indicates Pakistan’s Nuclear Weapons Program May Continue

On a trip to New York, Pakistani dictator Muhammad Zia ul-Haq meets with former US President Richard Nixon. The meeting is to discuss the Soviet-Afghan War, but Pakistan’s nuclear program also comes up. General Khalid Mahmud Arif, who accompanies Zia, will later say that Nixon makes it clear he is in favor of Pakistan gaining nuclear weapons capability. Nixon does not say that he is acting for Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan, but, according to authors Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clarke, “his comments signal […] the way ahead,” as the future Reagan administration will enable Pakistan to continue work on its nuclear weapons program without being sanctioned. [LEVY AND SCOTT-CLARK, 2007, PP. 76]


Mard-e-Haq, Mard-e-Momin Gen Zia ul Haq Shaheed was killed by our own army after they grew tired of him and his actions like the Ojhri camp blast.

Yeah , there were reports by this type of authors before the american invasion of Iraq. Prove to me that these are not concocted reports! CIA is known for paying authors to write fictions for gullible readers of Pakistan.

 

[jeypore]

Yeah , there were reports by this type of authors before the american invasion of Iraq. Prove to me that these are not concocted reports! CIA is known for paying authors to write fictions for gullible readers of Pakistan.

What do you care,,, you are afterall a Bangladeshi!!!!

 

[jeypore]

T-FAZ,

But no one wanted to tell them that pakistan has done that to india in the late 60's----the canberra electric bomber converted to ew was donated by the americans----this plane could fly at an altitude of 80 thousand feet----with space suits-----which the pakistani pilots didnot wear because they were cumbersome to operate in---.

Ok to me this sounds little

 

[jeypore]

But no one wanted to tell them that pakistan has done that to india in the late 60's----the canberra electric bomber converted to ew was donated by the americans----this plane could fly at an altitude of 80 thousand feet.

It's funny that a Plane could fly so high, but SAM's of Pakistan cannot reach further then 30,000 feet!!!! By the way, we are talking about the present and not the past.......

 

[thinkingcap81]

MastanKhan sir,

While i sympathize with you i cannot support your solution.

Can you say that corruption and criminal neglect of the have-nots of society are not as dangerous as the scourge of terrorism? Can you say that our Maoist insurgency is not as dangerous?

Some things catch more attention. The reason why terrorism as we refer to it today is feared because it can strike you and me --- we the better off with more power and access to the rights granted to us by the constitution suddenly find ourselves in the line of fire. This fear we cannot brush aside and makes its way to the headlines. Probably here lies the difference.

This brings us to the frightening idea that if we --- the better off --- are living in morbid fear and frustration then what chance do the unprivileged have?

You advocate the same means that terrorists use to finish them off. This cannot happen. Why? Is this not happening in India's Maoist heartlands? Yes it is. Localized groups are trained to take on the Maoists. Both sides live in fear. Why is it allowed? Because this news can be suppressed. But once this reaches us we are afraid of using the same means --- the world will not support our actions.

How can a system be called functional is there is nothing but gang wars and everyone is involved? If all sections of a society are up in arms then it is a recipe for disaster --- it is defined as a civil war.

So the best alternative is to ensure that the people in power do not in blind pursuit of some macabre goals --- goals that have lost traction and rendered ineffective --- ideals that cause harm to the fundamentals of the state --- ensure destruction of the system. They need to be rendered ineffective in a civilized way. This is the change that you need to advocate. How you will ensure it is your call and your means.

But this will take time. A minimum of a decade to see that finally there is no significant help to these fanatics. In the meantime the reduced support to these fringe elements will ensure that civil society will move on and progress will start to happen. Once we are filled with hope automatically our potential will increase. This is what is happening in India at least amongst some sections.

There is immense commonality between the South Asian states. Pakistan is not an oasis like Israel. There will be ups and downs but i cannot fathom a situation where your neighbour is growing in the right manner and you are perennially in no-man's land.

You will be severely behind India because of this tis decadal loss and even a generation will be scarred but that is the price to pay for a better future that you wish for Pakistan.

 

[T-Rex]

What do you care,,, you are afterall a Bangladeshi!!!!

We all live in a global village, don't we? So, what affects Pakistan, affects us. Therefore, it is not wise not to care.

 

[VelocuR]

America helped us in developing our Nuclear program.







Mard-e-Haq, Mard-e-Momin Gen Zia ul Haq Shaheed was killed by our own army after they grew tired of him and his actions like the Ojhri camp blast.

No I don't agree with American helping us nuclear programs. You should know Americans sanction us after Soviet left Afg'stan.

 

[Dance]

The solution here is wait a year and a half for the next election and vote for the second gov't. Everything wont be solved right away but the second political admin will be much stronger than the one now and would be able to take more tough decisions and stances. I'm not gonna get into detail again as to why and how that would happen as I have said it many times before. I will say this, vote in the next election, this year an a half will seem quiet long and tough, but it'll pass. You have no idea what wonders a strong political leader with the backing of his people can do.

I agree with you have said but what happens if a failure like Nawaz Sharif or even PPP win again? People in Pakistan do tend to vote for people based on ethnic/religious/ regional bases rather than on the merits of a person or who would be the best for Pakistan

 

[iPhone]

I agree with you have said but what happens if a failure like Nawaz Sharif or even PPP win again? People in Pakistan do tend to vote for people based on ethnic/religious/ regional bases rather than on the merits of a person or who would be the best for Pakistan

Bro, it doesnt matter who gets elected in the next election, even ppp, it'll be a stronger govt, on the heels of this govt completing its full term.

No party, no individual, elected will be all perfect, everyone has their flaws. That's not the focus, focus here is strengthening of our political system. Which will only happen when elected govts start completing their terms.

But I wouldnt be too worried about ppp getting reelected - The way they've screwed up. Their only fighting chance is if they do two things for next year, end of load shedding and cheap food commodities. Ghreeb log, they don't care about what policies are formed, as long as basic human necessaties are provided, and whoever provides that has their vote.

But for now it looks like it'll be PML-n and Imran khan, who knows they might even join hands.

 

[Developereo]

By the way, we are talking about the present and not the past.......

This is the part that some people don't seem to understand.

America looks out for American interests. In the past, India and Pakistan were proxy fronts between the USSR and US. If the Americans helped us, they did not do so for Pakistan's benefit, only to further their own agenda. Pakistan (and India's) game was to milk as much benefit out of the superpowers as possible in return for playing proxy.

Now the equation has changed and the US sees India as their favorite in the region. Pakistan is completely on the wrong side of this equation, for other reasons as well. It doesn't mean the Americans will stop helping Pakistan: if nothing else, it's always good to remind the Indians not to take America for granted.

None of this changes the fact that the solution to Pakistan's problems doesn't lie in civilian death squads, but official law enforcement and proper governance. We don't respond to outlaws by becoming outlaws ourselves.

 

[jeypore]

Now the equation has changed and the US sees India as their favorite in the region. Pakistan is completely on the wrong side of this equation, for other reasons as well. It doesn't mean the Americans will stop helping Pakistan: if nothing else, it's always good to remind the Indians not to take America for granted.

Who say's that Indian's have!!!

But in the mist of everything going on today's world, Pakistanie standing is looking very poor indeed....

The mentallity of the Pakistanies has always been reling on some source for there existence, Indians or Americans do not follow this mentallity, that is why it becomes an argument of hopelessness to young Pakistanies.....

 

[pmukherjee]

Wyat Earp was a US Marshal who broke every rule and law in the book. He sacrificed his brothers for his personal gain. Doc Holiday was a frontier gunfighter, gambler and a drunkard who would have been hung for his crimes had he not died of TB. Are they the right kind of people for the mission you have in mind? The gunfight at OK Coral was more for greed for land, cattle and power than righteousness. Aren't these gunfights already happening all over? Isn't it time they stopped?

 

[SQ8]

T-FAZ,

Thank you for your post----hate and anger blinds my countrymen from seeing ther obvious----. Pakistanis were complaining in the late 90's about the mig 25 flights over pakistan---and they had no response to it.

But no one wanted to tell them that pakistan has done that to india in the late 60's----the canberra electric bomber converted to ew was donated by the americans----this plane could fly at an altitude of 80 thousand feet----with space suits-----which the pakistani pilots didnot wear because they were cumbersome to operate in---. How many times this plane flew over india---only the paf knows----but we all know that our great air force let it sit on the tarmac during the 71 war and let it burn on the air field after the iaf strike-----.

So---how often has the americans helped us----more often that others would let us believe in. We are possibly the only country in the world---to protect it the american president hinted on using the nuclear option on our opponent.

Open you minds young pakistanis----your parents have been lying to you through all these years.

One was destroyed in the strike.... and there was really no way to avoid it. after all, one cannot keep them in the air all the time.
They did provide valuable intel during the war.. if albeit briefly.. since the US stopped the spares of they type(they had different engines compared to the standard B-57).
However, this does not take from the fact that the first of these examples was shot down by our own gunners in the previous war...and that unlike the 65 war(also bungled up by some PAF officers who took no advantage of a flying club calling itself an airforce in the IAF) the IAF was MUCH better trained and MUCH better led than they were in 65.
And they were even better trained during Kargil.. and they are better than that now.

Whatever has been fed to young Pakistani's.. they should know this.. everytime you take on India, they learn from their mistakes and come back better.. have your forces showed any signs of the same..learning from their mistakes?? history shows otherwise..
Anyway, this will derail the thread.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Mastan my friend
your post reminds me of the movie swordfish
about an undercover government organisation that takes the fight back to the terrorists and hunts them down and kills then in the same fashion they do but in a far more larger and extreme scale to send the message to them.
I totally agree that this half assed and apologetic approach should be done away with.

What benefit has been achieved by withholding the pictures of slain terrorists? They are still killing the Pakistanis and their acts are getting more audacious and outrageous. The people who love them and agree with their ideology will continue to love them. The right wing anchors and media that supports them will continue to support them and criticise the army no matter how careful it is.

Remember the Lal Masjid episode? That shameless and disgraceful cleric of a Mullah not only lied out of his face and so did his wife but also, his followers used the Iraqi civilians pictures to put the blame on Pakistan army for using phosphorus and other incendiary weapons to subdue to thugs of the Lal masjid. They claimed it was red mosque victims that were killed by Pakistani bombs and alas our naïve public also bought it. The rest was done by our pro Taliban media, recently freed by Musharaf and they added fuel to the fire and willingly worked as free media outlet of all the fanatic & sectarian forces that now call themselves TTP.

Pakistan army and government has been outdone on the propaganda war. What you see is repeat of some mock fighting and manoeuvres by paramilitary forces that are even worse by police standards. Anyone who has a shred of knowledge of how infantry moves in an assault will know that what we are see these soldiers doing is nothing but a stroll or an invitation to TTP for target practice.. the rest is firing at bushes or firing of the cannons at the unseen enemy.

Yes, if we do the same then there wont be any difference between us and the beasts of Sipah Sahabah who specially pick up Shia soldiers and gleefully behead them in a crowd. But this all talk is the talk of the peace times. Is there any nice way of firing at an enemy with a 60MM or 120 MM mortar or cannon round? Is there a subtle way of aiming at an enemy with a 7.62 or 12.7mm round? I am sorry there is none. It is all very gory and graphic. The Taliban have been using it for a decade now. Its time our leadership also does it in kind so that any potential recruits loose the appetite for this religious terrorism.

but we need to use shock for their shock and terror tactics so that any wannabe, bigot and intolerant idiot who is currently attending the Lal Masjid and the fanatic protest rallies doesn’t decide to actually become part of a terror group. Nothing will change the minds of the people who support Taliban but a chilling and ruthless treatment of the terrorists will keep them only a keyboard and rally jihadists that want to turn ths region into a Deobandi/ wahabi utopia.

Throughout Islamic history, the examples were made of the rebels who spread “fitna”. Indeed we are very naïve nation which is still bogged down on the debate if its our war or not? And is so innocently convinced that the moment Americans leave Afghanistan, the rivers will start flowing with milk and soil with turn into gold. The Taliban will lay down their weapons and embrace the Pakistani public with gratitude, loin and the goat will quash their thirst with peace and it will be happiness joy and festivities.

Not everyone has to go and sign up at Punjab regimental centre. You can do your duty by keeping an eye on the suspicious people around you and report the known sympathisers who might be harbouring terrorist s that are planning the next terror attack which might result in the loss of life of your loved ones.
And finally we really need to rid ourselves off this “aid” from our Arab brothers, their constant funding of the Debandi and Ahl Hadith Madrassahs (the main source of Taliban fighters) is not a secret. Its now even official through wikileaks.

WE needto strangle the source of funding of these terrorists from UAE, Jordan, Bahrain and Saudi governments. They can keep their vicious and intolerant salafi school of faith with them. Their petrodollars have given us religious intolerene and blood of the innocents. Our country is a home of Sufi saints and lovers of the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH, this fitna needs to be crushed once again , just like Hazrat Ali r.a. did in his time.