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Pakistan's War: Now is The Time or Forever Hold Your Peace

Hi,

I don't know why you talk----guy pakistan became a nuclear power due to the blessings of americans-----just because you can talk---doesnot mean that you know what you are saying----so many of our nuclear scientists got their education in america, great britain canada and other european countries---when pakistan chose to get out of commonwealth----there were british scientists helping pakistan with our reactors---with whatever we had---.

The purchases that we were making all over the world---the agency knew all about it---just because they looked the other way does not mean that they didnot help us----. Our program existed due to the blessings of the americans.

They could have forced us to stop the program right in the early 70's----. I had a family member in the top echelons of our nuc porgram----he was educated in britain and usa---he worked in a nuclear reactor in the south before he went to pakistan----.

So---my good buddy---please just don't wing it----.

Yeah you're right, Pakistan got nukes with the blessings from uncle sam and india got its nukes with the blessings from Pakistan I suppose! Your analytical power surely surpasses that of the students of nursery. Learn from history what Kissinger told Bhutto for making that famous remark. Also learn how and why President Ziaul Haque was killed.
 
Iranians study nuclear physics in Britain - Times Online

I guess this means that Britain is 'blessing' the Iranian nuclear program.

Of course, that's the kind of logic mastankhan would like to present to this forum. There are some who are so deeply in love with america or should I say sold out to america that even if they are shown the truth by God Himself still they won't see the truth about the relationship between america and Pakistan. Wise men learn from the past while morons ignore the past.
 
@MK, definitely Pak nuclear scientists got their education in the US. But that doesn't mean US supported them in going back and launching nuke program in Pak or supported the program. And US knew of Pak gathering material around the world and turned a blind eye? Common now really?
 
IMHO, the people who are talking of governance etc. as the reason for the current predicment of Pakistan are just not getting it. They are stuck in a timewarp with no way of getting out, because they don't want to and they can't. It is just too uncomforatable to shun what is familiar and cozy and think out of the box.

It should be plain to see that the governance in Pakistan has always been pathetic for the last 64 years (along with many other so called developing countries). It was still chugging along reasonably and even making progress, albeit slowly.

The current set of issues are coming out of the policy that Zia started in 1979 and the resultant radicalization of the society. That is the real difference from the pre 1979 society, not the so called governance which was never great to start with.

Looking for external enemies (which one can't do much about) is a convenient excuse to externalize the blame while most of it is due to the choices made by pakistani leaders.

Nobody's denying the existence of extremism and the need to tackle it. My comment was in response to the call to vigilanteeism for the average citizen to go around killing 'miltants', 'fanatics' and 'mullahs'. That is not the answer. It is the job of law enforcement to provide security and apprehend criminals. Citizens can and should help them by providing information, but they do not have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. In fact, it is precisely this 'wild west' mentality by the religious fanatics that is causing so much mayhem in Pakistan.

The lack of governance is a direct factor in providing sanctuaries for terrorists within Pakistan. When you go to FATA, there are signs that say the government of Pakistan takes no responsibility once you leave the street and enter the shops. What an absolute disgrace for a government to throw up it's hands and say "you're on your own here". Even if we accept that the army provided sanctuary to some Taliban groups within Pakistan, it doesn't change the fact that there are other groups who are here without our permission.

As for external agencies, again, we acknowledge that the foot soldiers in terrorism are often our own people, but somebody is providing them with funds, training and weapons. And not all of that is domestic. Furthermore, there have been examples of NATO/Afghan forces deliberately abandoning their border posts just as TTP terrorists are running away from Pak army onslaught. Pakistan gets accused of playing a double game in this war, but we are not the only ones being duplicitous here.
 
Of course, that's the kind of logic mastankhan would like to present to this forum. There are some who are so deeply in love with america or should I say sold out to america that even if they are shown the truth by God Himself still they won't see the truth about the relationship between america and Pakistan. Wise men learn from the past while morons ignore the past.

I am not pro- or anti-America. Even though America helped Pakistan in the past in many ways, the world has changed after the Cold War, and so has America's perception of how best to further their own national interests. Pakistan is most definitely on the wrong side of that equation for the Americans, and the sooner we accept that reality, the better we can deal with it.
 
Nobody's denying the existence of extremism and the need to tackle it. My comment was in response to the call to vigilanteeism for the average citizen to go around killing 'miltants', 'fanatics' and 'mullahs'. That is not the answer. It is the job of law enforcement to provide security and apprehend criminals. Citizens can and should help them by providing information, but they do not have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. In fact, it is precisely this 'wild west' mentality by the religious fanatics that is causing so much mayhem in Pakistan.

The lack of governance is a direct factor in providing sanctuaries for terrorists within Pakistan. When you go to FATA, there are signs that say the government of Pakistan takes no responsibility once you leave the street and enter the shops. What an absolute disgrace for a government to throw up it's hands and say "you're on your own here". Even if we accept that the army provided sanctuary to some Taliban groups within Pakistan, it doesn't change the fact that there are other groups who are here without our permission.

As for external agencies, again, we acknowledge that the foot soldiers in terrorism are often our own people, but somebody is providing them with funds, training and weapons. And not all of that is domestic. Furthermore, there have been examples of NATO/Afghan forces deliberately abandoning their border posts just as TTP terrorists are running away from Pak army onslaught. Pakistan gets accused of playing a double game in this war, but we are not the only ones being duplicitous here.

This is not just due to bad governance. This is due to bad policies.

The areas are deliberately kept out of governance because they are to be used again for rearing the strategic assets when the Yanks go home.

The PA is not yet ready to abandon them. They may be causing some pain but it is not yet big enough for the decision makers to reverse a decades long strategic decision.

We may think it backfired, they think they can still get it in control.
 
I am not pro- or anti-America. Even though America helped Pakistan in the past in many ways, the world has changed after the Cold War, and so has America's perception of how best to further their own national interests. Pakistan is most definitely on the wrong side of that equation for the Americans, and the sooner we accept that reality, the better we can deal with it.

Pakistan does not need to declare war against the US, however, denying that Pakistan is in its list of hostile states is like sticking ones head in the sand. The message is clear from the US, Pakistan must dismantle or handover its nukes to a third party. As long as Pakistan refuses to follow this dictation it will be viewed by the US as a hostile nation. We all, except people like mastankhan on this forum, know this for a fact. We also know what will follow after Pakistan dismantles its nukes. Another Spanish inquisition or perhaps Sebrenitse for the entire Muslim World. The Muslims in Spain were given assurance by Isabella and the people of Sebrenitse were given assurance by the UN of their safety and we know what happened. The lesson is, assurance by the west means nothing for the Muslims, promises are made to fool the Muslims.
 
This is not just due to bad governance. This is due to bad policies.

The areas are deliberately kept out of governance because they are to be used again for rearing the strategic assets when the Yanks go home.

The PA is not yet ready to abandon them. They may be causing some pain but it is not yet big enough for the decision makers to reverse a decades long strategic decision.

We may think it backfired, they think they can still get it in control.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity (or, in GoP's case, incompetence).
 
Pakistan does not need to declare war against the US, however, denying that Pakistan is in its list of hostile states is like sticking ones head in the sand. The message is clear from the US, Pakistan must dismantle or handover its nukes to a third party. As long as Pakistan refuses to follow this dictation it will be viewed by the US as a hostile nation. We all, except people like mastankhan on this forum, know this for a fact. We also know what will follow after Pakistan dismantles its nukes. Another Spanish inquisition or perhaps Sebrenitse for the entire Muslim World. The Muslims in Spain were given assurance by Isabella and the people of Sebrenitse were given assurance by the UN of their safety and we know what happened. The lesson is, assurance by the west means nothing for the Muslims, promises are made to fool the Muslims.

I don't think the US is out to exterminate Muslims or, to be honest, even remove Pakistan's nukes. They just want to degrade our capacity for conventional war.

Nukes are mostly for show -- no country is going to use them in real life. All this talk about the security of Pakistan's nukes is just part of the western campaign to demonize and isolate Pakistan.
 
Hi,

You know it is never good to look the gift horse in the mouth. The powerful give in their own ways----so if the british are allowing the iranian students to study nuclear physics---then it is indeed a form of giving the blessings----I mean to say that there are certain things done in a delicate subtle way to give an underhanded approval as long as it stays under the radar---.

Is there any such thing left as common sense in my country men----is ignorance all that you have to show for your achievements----is there an end to this stubborness.
 
Yeah you're right, Pakistan got nukes with the blessings from uncle sam and india got its nukes with the blessings from Pakistan I suppose! Your analytical power surely surpasses that of the students of nursery. Learn from history what Kissinger told Bhutto for making that famous remark. Also learn how and why President Ziaul Haque was killed.

America helped us in developing our Nuclear program.

November 1975: CIA Instructs Dutch Not to Arrest A. Q. Khan over Passage of Nuclear Secrets; Khan Flees to Pakistan

After the BVD, a Dutch intelligence agency, informs the CIA that it intends to arrest A. Q. Khan over the passage of nuclear secrets to Pakistan (see Mid-October 1975), the CIA tells the Dutch to let Khan continue with his activities. Former Dutch Minister of Economc Affairs Ruud Lubbers will say, “The Americans wished to follow and watch Khan to get more information.” Lubbers questions this and the CIA tells him to block Khan’s access to the secrets, which the Dutch do by promoting him to a job where he no longer has access to sensitive data from the uranium enrichment company Urenco. Lubbers will later suggest that the real reason the US does not want Khan arrested is because of its interest in helping Pakistan, an enemy of Soviet-leaning India. Because Khan no longer has access to the sensitive data after his promotion, the CIA cannot find out anything by monitoring him. In addition, the promotion alerts Khan to the fact he may be under surveillance, and he flees to Pakistan in mid-December. Authors David Armstrong and Joe Trento will later comment: “What no one yet realized was that Khan had already absconded with the plans for almost every centrifuge on Urenco’s drawing board, including the all-important G-2 [centrifuge]. It would prove to be one of the greatest nuclear heists of all time.” [ARMSTRONG AND TRENTO, 2007, PP. 54]

December 26, 1979: Memo to President Carter Gives Pakistan Green Light to Pursue Nuclear Weapons Program

National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski writes a memo to President Jimmy Carter about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which has just begun (see December 8, 1979). Brzezinski focuses on fears that success in Afghanistan could give the Soviets access to the Indian Ocean, even though Afghanistan is a landlocked country. He suggests the US should continue aid to the Afghan mujaheddin, which actually began before the war and spurred the Soviets to invade (see 1978 and July 3, 1979). He says, “This means more money as well as arms shipments to the rebels and some technical advice.” He does not give any warning that such aid will strengthen Islamic fundamentalism. He also concludes, “[W]e must both reassure Pakistan and encourage it to help the rebels. This will require a review of our policy toward Pakistan, more guarantees to it, more arms aid, and alas, a decision that our security problem toward Pakistan cannot be dictated by our nonproliferation policy.” Carter apparently accepts Brzezinski’s advice. Author Joe Trento will later comment, “With that, the United States agreed to let a country admittedly in turmoil proceed to develop nuclear weapons.” [TRENTO, 2005, PP. 167-168] Trento and fellow author David Armstrong will add: “Once [Pakistan] became a partner in the anti-Soviet Afghan campaign and the Carter administration adopted a more lenient view of Pakistan’s nuclear activities, the [procurement] network [run by A. Q. Khan] expanded its operations dramatically. It would soon evolve into a truly global enterprise, obtaining the vast array of sophisticated equipment with which Pakistan would eventually build a bomb.” [ARMSTRONG AND TRENTO, 2007, PP. 99]

October 1980: Former President Nixon Indicates Pakistan’s Nuclear Weapons Program May Continue

On a trip to New York, Pakistani dictator Muhammad Zia ul-Haq meets with former US President Richard Nixon. The meeting is to discuss the Soviet-Afghan War, but Pakistan’s nuclear program also comes up. General Khalid Mahmud Arif, who accompanies Zia, will later say that Nixon makes it clear he is in favor of Pakistan gaining nuclear weapons capability. Nixon does not say that he is acting for Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan, but, according to authors Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clarke, “his comments signal […] the way ahead,” as the future Reagan administration will enable Pakistan to continue work on its nuclear weapons program without being sanctioned. [LEVY AND SCOTT-CLARK, 2007, PP. 76]

Mard-e-Haq, Mard-e-Momin Gen Zia ul Haq Shaheed was killed by our own army after they grew tired of him and his actions like the Ojhri camp blast.
 
Hi,
Is there any such thing left as common sense in my country men----is ignorance all that you have to show for your achievements----is there an end to this stubborness.

We are in this current position for a reason, common sense is something that evaded the minds of many in this nation a long time ago.

Ignorance and stubbornness reigns supreme, things only look good from here.
 
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity (or, in GoP's case, incompetence).

Yes, but selective incompetence always leaves room for doubt.

Anyway, what I mentioned about the policy is obviously a fact as well. It suits the establishment to have some areas where the so called writ doesn't run.
 
Mard-e-Haq, Mard-e-Momin Gen Zia ul Haq Shaheed was killed by our own army after they grew tired of him and his actions like the Ojhri camp blast.

The Ojhri blast was blamed on KGB, isn't it?

How was Zia responsible for it unless you are talking of the whole Afghan campaign?

PS: OK, wiki tells me that PA was blamed for it as well (probably for trying to cover up the misappropriation of US weapons for other purposes). Guess that is what you meant.
 
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