Pakistan's War - Documentaries

[MastanKhan]

Hi Neo / Agno,

When incompetence reaches its highest---you can call it by another name---CORPORATE AMERICA at work. The afghan war was started and run by corporate america and u s millitary took a back seat. The initial WAR MANAGERS were atypical american right wing born again christians, Neo cons, who may have had the smarts of running a corporation by intimidation ( Rumsfeld---Cheney ) but very little training in running and managing a war---was it intentional or was it on purpose.

You can wonder about the examples seen from the russian afghan war and the same blunders being repeated by the americans times and again---that makes you wonder----have these idiots come from another galaxy, if not, were they living on another planet---. Then you ask this questions----were these mistakes made intentionally----because stupidity has its own limits.

We have an ex millitary member of the u s army here S 2----an artillery officer at that----whom I think is a former millitary intelligence officer. When you talk to S 2 and read his posts---- he don't come across a babbling idiot----but rather a very articulate, very well informed with in depth information about the subject, extremely professional in appearance and style, sharp as a razor's edge, could rip you apart and cut you to pieces with a neurosurgeon's precision and skill and not even a smirk on his face----but just another ordinary artillery officer.

Now think about it----if an ordinary artillery captain is so incredibly knowledgeable and precise, what would the rest of the army be like----how about the generals leading that army and the other intelligence reporting staff behind them.

They would have crossed every T and dotted every i that they could have found----every scenario had to be played over and over many atimes. Then why the un-challanged escape from TORA BORA---why the un-challanged escape from Qandhahar---.

What I am saying is that the paks were sleeping at the helm as well----they should have caught onto the deception right from the gitgo---they should have seen the larceny in the character of the invaders---they should have been awake and prepared for the ultimate deception.

Pakistani millitary officials / generals need to partake training in understanding the workings of an american mind and american environment without any prejudice and personal hatred.

The video shows a general---a good man trying to do his job------but doesnot have the savy and grooming of his american counterpart.

 

[waraich66]

Americans are losing international support rapidly for WOT ,almost whole south america is against american policies of unilateralism.
In iraq after removal of sadam they could not win hearts of iraqi peoples similiarly in Afghanistan war the moral of mujahdeen is very high they have defeated super power USSR and still fighting not only with USA but best armies of whole europe and could continue for next many decades .

In the end of Afghanistan if any body done some thing good for american no body from islamic world will appreciate it.They will get the title of Kaddar or munafiq.

Present israel aggression against palestian will further detoriate American support in Muslim and neutral Western Countries ,Africa and South America,Central Asia is already against American policies.

 

[S-2]

"Then why the un-challanged escape from TORA BORA---why the un-challanged escape from Qandhahar---."

Way to butter me up for the oven. You build a straw man argument of omnipotence to construct a conspiracy theory.

My best argument there is to think back to those days in late 2001 and early 2002. What units existed where? Not many as I recall. In short, our act was rather poorly wired at that point. Call it 6,000 miles of discombobulation.

Mastan Khan, I'd strongly recommend a superb read that will simultaneously permit you to meet a lot of really superb soldiers and yet be able to watch them wallow in the muddle of indecision and callous mis-management- Sean Naylor's Not A Good Day To Die. It chroncles Operation Anaconda at Tora Bora in February 2002. Naylor is excellent. He writes for the Army Times and has super contacts.

It rips, righteously, our command structure and shows an army not yet on it's game. Sadly, many of the issues there then are still present in some forms but may simply constitute the friction of coalition warfare.

Make no mistake that a huge failing on our part was the unpreparedness to identify the ANA then for what it was- hardly "battle-hardened" and nothing but a bunch of inept overgrown children with guns. Hardly the stuff that would seal A.Q. in.

You'll like the read a lot, I believe.

Thanks for the interesting portrayal. Truly.

Now were it only true.

 

[Kasrkin]

He shouldn't be so sensitive. In general, it's a soldier's lot in life. Specifically, he shouldn't feel singled out as a Pakistani warrior. The western community "thanklessly overlooks the efforts" of our men and western armies daily as well.

Join the crowd.

That’s not a fair assessment. Pakistani soldiers in particular have reason to feel that their efforts are over looked by others because...well they are. Fox News, CNN, Sky News, BBC and others are naturally inclined to cover their soldiers, their operations, their hardships, their losses, and their frustrations...entirely their side of the story. While coverage of Pakistan's efforts and contributions are almost always in the negative if you’d study the international media/press.

As far as Pakistan's own booming media goes, well as I'm sure many Pakistanis here will tell you, they represent the completely opposite side of the spectrum. PA is more often than not branded kin killers, slaves to America, callous, immoral and the list goes on.

Point is that Pakistani soldiers have every reason to feel disappointed. They are fighting an unpopular war against a formidable foe, with little or no domestic support or encouragement; they get little more than cynicism, distrust and sometimes downright contempt from those whom they are supposed to be assisting. They are dying in a brutal, costly war for the sake of the world, a war which was hardly their making. So yes they have a legitimate issue with some of these attitudes. You can’t shove that all under the carpet with arguments like 'it’s the same with us', because it’s not.

The plight of Pakistan and its Army was the primary theme in this report; the human face of it, the ground realities of it. This is why so many of us are appreciating it for a change. It’s an entirely new theme from the international media, mainly because Al-Jezeera is not constrained by the usual stereotypes influencing the reporters from countries whose armies are deployed on the other side.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm not buying. Your army should have clearly known the nature of the forces awaiting them in Loe Sam and the extent of their fortifications. As it was, it was all a complete surprise.

Blame us should you wish but it's your army on your soil that's living/dying with the consequences.

If you had quoted the second part of my post you would have realized that exoneration of the PA on its intelligence effort was not my intent.

That said, I find it hard to believe that the US had no eyes and ears on the ground and in the air and absolutely nothign to share. I don't buy the fact that, in an area adjacent to 'enemy central', and responsible for a significant amount of cross border support, there was absolutely zero input from the US.

 

[S-2]

"...I find it hard to believe that the US had no eyes and ears on the ground and in the air and absolutely nothign to share."

This is speculative and dissembling. You presume that we had the means, knew about the extent of the fortifications and didn't share sufficiently early to affect planning. Those are big assumptions and more than likely inaccurate.

 

[IceCold]

Others will criticize no matter what we do and well one shouldnt be too much bothered about that, however what a foreign news channel did, was suppose to be the job of our own media and this is unfortunate that media hasnt played the role it is suppose too to inorder to change the international opinion about Pakistan and its army and the kind of situation that we are facing here.
With said that something really amazed me and that was the use of T-59. Last time i checked they are being phased out, then what in the bloody hell are they doing there, where are the AL-Khalids and AL-Zarar? Moreover the troops being moved in those pickup tucks, that sucks man, they are prone to any attack by an RPG or a machine gun and they offer zero protection againt them, why hasnt APC being deployed for troop transport? I have seen APCs with the police and not with the army at the front line, How far do we think we will go like that?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In a situation like this---a T 59 can do the job well. I would rather see a damaged T 59 than the burnt out hull of an al zarrar or an al khalid.

 

[Kasrkin]

Now think about it----if an ordinary artillery captain is so incredibly knowledgeable and precise, what would the rest of the army be like----how about the generals leading that army and the other intelligence reporting staff behind them.

They would have crossed every T and dotted every i that they could have found----every scenario had to be played over and over many atimes. Then why the un-challanged escape from TORA BORA---why the un-challanged escape from Qandhahar---

I don’t think you draw the right conclusions from your observations brother. We all know that the Americans excel at selling their point of view to others, even if those PoVs disregard other equally (if not more) credible ones held by their counterparts or adversaries.

Battlefield incompetence is unavoidable. Wars are won depending on who makes the bigger mistakes; complete competence on the battlefield is a myth. The Americans like everyone else are susceptible to major screw ups and what at times can be astounding incompetence. But their resources are usually (but not always) sufficient in offsetting these shortcomings on a strategic level.

I suggest you read the book Generation Kill to get a better insight into the realities of American war.

Tora Bora was a screw up, and a systematic one at that. It landed us Pakistanis in a lot of trouble as well, despite our best efforts to contain the damage.

Pakistani millitary officials / generals need to partake training in understanding the workings of an american mind and american environment without any prejudice and personal hatred.

A lot of officers do go there for courses. This is nothing new, and S-2 obviously does not present the exact attitude meted out to Pakistani officers by their western counter-parts sir. There is a variety of people everywhere.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"...I find it hard to believe that the US had no eyes and ears on the ground and in the air and absolutely nothign to share."

This is speculative and dissembling. You presume that we had the means, knew about the extent of the fortifications and didn't share sufficiently early to affect planning. Those are big assumptions and more than likely inaccurate.

The US has been carrying out air strikes, and atleast one known SF raid, into FATA, and you wish for me to believe you had no intelligence or intelligence assets in a territory adjacent to, and supplying significant resources, 'enemy central'?

I find that extremely hard to believe, though I would not go so far as to say that the US deliberately withheld information.

 

[S-2]

"The US has been carrying out air strikes, and atleast one known SF raid, into FATA, and you wish for me to believe you had no intelligence or intelligence assets in a territory adjacent to, and supplying significant resources, 'enemy central'?"

Actually, yes, I do. The raid and virtually all airstrikes have been focused further south. You know that and the difference between Waziristan and Bajaur is clear. I've speculated that improvements in PREDATOR targeting has coincided with improved HUMINT via your government- not ours.

You presume unlimited assets to loiter without specific cuing instructions. Not possible. You presume human networks when we struggle to build such within the Kunar villages and their own residents struggle to communicate with those villages in the next valley? 20 kilometers to Loe Sam might as well be traveling to the moon. Those are "bottom-up" networks developed by our combat battalions and brigades.

Top-down? Who's operatives-RAW, Afghani, or C.I.A. organically-developed asset, how many, and where? Presently assigned tasks? Who cues them to find Rehman? Need relocation? How dangerous to move? ISI counter-intelligence out there watching? If so, how come they don't see Rehman?

Your suggesting that we provide what any basic community policing or modestly networked local government would know. Rehman's presence was known in these communities since last spring. WHAT he was doing exactly besides the usual sharia courts and intimidation evidently was the $60,000 question. THAT remained unanswered for failure to look under the rocks while still possible.

What happened at Loe Sam was a failure of your nat'l assets and displays the depth of penetration achieved by these militias into your society. They're out of the hills and down by the roads, towns, and even Peshawar.

They should now be easy to see.

 

[IceCold]

Hi,

In a situation like this---a T 59 can do the job well. I would rather see a damaged T 59 than the burnt out hull of an al zarrar or an al khalid.

Ok care to elaborate as how can an obsolete T-59 could perform better then an AL-Khalid or for that matter AL-Zarar? Pardon my ignorance over the issue, but i find it a bit hard to believe.

 

[kidwaibhai]

I think S-2 is right in saying that we should have known how fairly well prepared they were for the fight. but i think that the army is learning from its experiences. the example of that is the quick and sudden operation in Khyber. i think this whole notion of announcing the operation before it starts is a little silly and this i think allows the militants to run away from the fight.

 

[Neo]

Who knows what NATO/US should have done. The war unfolded fast but it wasn't like Pakistan didn't know on Sept. 12 that we were coming. A more forthcoming effort by Pakistan may have found your divisions racing up to FATAland for extensive "training exercises" with your F.C. and conducting "joint" training patrols, etc.

BTW, "constitutional restrictions"????

Foreign combatants of a neighboring army enter Pakistan and you are "constitutionally restricted" from engaging them? Really? Better think that one through again, Neo.

Did you read my entire post? Foreign combatants fighting American soldiers enjoy sympathy and aren't considered "hostile" in those tribal area's and PA has no jurisdiction as she's not allowed to enter the area as per our consitution. Your government is pushing us for democratic reforms and at the same time telling us to enter FATA violating the constitutional rights of the tribes?

That's your miscalculation- not ours. That's your turf- not ours. Those were your tribal citizens offering sanctuary- not ours. You want us to do your thinking for you now? You're the local experts. If you knew this, where was your army to repel these foreign soldiers from the afghan taliban army and A.Q.? Isn't that what an army does?

Maybe all of your "local" knowledge has made you go "native"? A bit of "Stockholm Syndrome" were you've more sympathy for the perpetrators than the victims?

Ohh thats very convenient, blaming us when you started the war and clearly failed to protect the boundries for possible fall out. It wasn't our war in 2002, you made it ours by allowing those militants to cross border. Thats my point.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually, yes, I do. The raid and virtually all airstrikes have been focused further south. You know that and the difference between Waziristan and Bajaur is clear. I've speculated that improvements in PREDATOR targeting has coincided with improved HUMINT via your government- not ours.

You presume unlimited assets to loiter without specific cuing instructions. Not possible. You presume human networks when we struggle to build such within the Kunar villages and their own residents struggle to communicate with those villages in the next valley? 20 kilometers to Loe Sam might as well be traveling to the moon. Those are "bottom-up" networks developed by our combat battalions and brigades.

Sorry, but I just do not see how you do not have assets monitoring one of the major staging areas into one of the most hostile sectors in Afghanistan. The effect in Afghanistan from the Bajaur operation has been significant in the observations of both US and Pakistani officials, far more than the occasional air strike further south has been shown to do.

If no assets really did not or do not exist in Bajaur, the US should be moving her assets to where their impact actually counts, since they seem to be doing nothing more than inflaming public opinion in their current deployment locale.