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Pakistan's slice of the moon

Semantics and Conjectures aside. I understand some of your points. Let's be brutally honest though; Which people's invented the Radio, Cars, Aeroplanes, Jets, Fighter Jets, Submarines, the Telephone, Mobile phones, the internet, modern communications, Tanks etc?

Excluding East Asians, if all other Non-Whites were even remotely a capable people, you wouldn't have indians, Pakistanis, Arabs, South Americans and Blacks buying advanced weapons systems from the West or Russia. They would make it themselves. Why can't they? Can any of those above mentioned people's invent something that the Whites would buy?

If your argument is that we as a people (non whites) need to spend more money into educating our children and fostering a culture of innovation, then I support you 100 %. We severely lack behind it.
Western nations (Britain, France, US) have fostered that culture and the modern inventions they have come up with are the result of that. No doubt.

But your argument is based in race and superiority of one over the other, when history has shown that the same people (whites) were more regressive and backwards than the present daymullahs you yourself hate at those points in time. Doesn’t mean that that gap cannot be bridged or that we should relegate it as some sort of inferiority of our race.

I will admit that we should live in the now and what matters is now. But a past and history allows us to build hero’s to look up to and emulate. A culture you want in Pakistan as well, ie reach the heights that your land once achieved. Isn’t that what “Indus nationalism” is all about at its concept?
And only through achievements such as Chandrayaan and learning from it can we create that sense of pride and those hero’s we want to emulate.

There are smart people in every culture and race, it’s simply a matter of identifying and harvesting them where we have lacked severely.
Better to change that trend now than never.
 
If your argument is that we as a people (non whites) need to spend more money into educating our children and fostering a culture of innovation, then I support you 100 %. We severely lack behind it.
Western nations (Britain, France, US) have fostered that culture and the modern inventions they have come up with are the result of that. No doubt.

But your argument is based in race and superiority of one over the other, when history has shown that the same people (whites) were more regressive and backwards than the present daymullahs you yourself hate at those points in time. Doesn’t mean that that gap cannot be bridged or that we should relegate it as some sort of inferiority of our race.

I will admit that we should live in the now and what matters is now. But a past and history allows us to build hero’s to look up to and emulate. A culture you want in Pakistan as well, ie reach the heights that your land once achieved. Isn’t that what “Indus nationalism” is all about at its concept?
And only through achievements such as Chandrayaan and learning from it can we create that sense of pride and those hero’s we want to emulate.

There are smart people in every culture and race, it’s simply a matter of identifying and harvesting them where we have lacked severely.
Better to change that trend now than never.





EXACTLY!!!!!........That's what I was alluding too. So why don't Non-Whites (excluding East-Asians) do something about their sorry/pathetic state? They're more interested in being corrupt, vile inhumane and oppressing their own people.

There are too many of them but I will point out one that I remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Boykin
The guy invented artificial pacemaker. He was "Black".

PS : Invention and Product are not same. You buy products and usually not inventions.




Could he have done the above if he was in a black african country?
 
Could he have done the above if he was in a black african country?
Okay. Before I even go there, which is your biggest point of contention? :
1. Non-"White"-Non-"East Asian" person inventing something used by "Whites"?
OR
2. A person in Non-"White"-Non-"East Asian" country inventing something used by "Whites"?

I got a feeling that your point was (1), because otherwise, somehow, you are putting the blame to geography/country and not the people.
 
EXACTLY!!!!!........That's what I was alluding too. So why don't Non-Whites (excluding East-Asians) do something about their sorry/pathetic state? They're more interested in being corrupt, vile inhumane and oppressing their own people.

?

But when a country like India which is mired in poverty and other social problems reaches a milestone like a moon landing, why is it that you feel the need to knock down the achievement?
Didn’t this feat of science happen because we took exactly those steps to get there? Foster education, science, research?
 
Pakistan will reach for the moon when every Pakistani is out of poverty line. there is no point in participating in a wrestling match when you have stomach infection. Indians are in the ring wrestling with pampers to cover their leaking behind with more than 400 million people living like animals.


https://www.dawn.com/news/1496468/pakistans-slice-of-the-moon

MONDAY’S launch of the Chandrayaan-2 water-finding moon mission is a significant demonstration of India’s scientific and engineering capacity. It puts India firmly within a select group of countries prowling the solar system for commercial, strategic, and scientific reasons. Pakistanis naturally want to know where they stand in science — of which space exploration is just a small part — and why. What gave India this enormous lead over Pakistan?

It is natural that India’s Hindutva government should boast Chandrayaan-2 as its own achievement and claim continuation with imagined glories from Vedic times. But rightfully the credit goes elsewhere. Just imagine if history could be wound back by 70-80 years and prime-minister Jawaharlal Nehru was replaced by Narendra Modi.

Instead of astronomy, today’s India would be pursuing astrology. Its university departments would have many ganitagayons but few mathematicians, an army of rishis would outnumber physicists. The cure for cancer would be sought in yoga while floods and earthquakes would somehow be linked to cow slaughter. Instead of devising Chandrayaan, Indian scientists would be searching for the fictitious Vimana of Ravana.

The atheistic Nehru brought to India an acceptance of European modernity. For this Hindutva hates him even more than it hates India’s Muslims and Christians. Still, his insistence on ‘scientific temper’ — a singularly odd phrase invented while he was still in prison — made India nurture science. Earlier, vigorous reformers like Raja Ram Mohan Roy (1772-1833) had shown the path. As long as Nehru stood tall no rishi, yogi, or army general could head a science institution

Will Pakistan also get a slice of the moon? That depends upon the quality of our scientists and if a culture of science develops. Of course, Pakistan never had a Nehru. A further setback happened in the Ziaul Haq days when Sir Syed Ahmad Khan’s modernism had its remaining flesh eaten off by Allama Iqbal’s shaheen. As if to compensate the loss of appetite for science, buildings for half-a-dozen science institutions were erected along Islamabad’s Constitution Avenue. They could be closed down today and no one would notice. Today’s situation for science — every kind except agriculture and biotechnology — is dire.

The official website of the National Space Agency of Pakistan (Suparco) is silent on space exploration plans. Born a year before its Indian counterpart ISRO, Suparco lists its earliest achievement as the periodic launches of US-supplied weather monitoring Rehbar rockets between 1962 and 1972. The most recent activity listed is of July 9, 2018, when China launched two remote sensing satellites for Pakistan to monitor progress on CPEC. One of the two “was indigenously designed and solely developed by Suparco, and is primarily aimed at remote sensing”.

As a space-filler this pathetic website speaks in hushed terms about the Hatf and Shaheen-III missile programmes but falls short of saying what Suparco’s role was, if any. The last four chairmen of Suparco, together with their educational qualifications, are listed as Maj Gen. Raza Husain (2001-2010, BSc), Maj Gen. Ahmed Bilal Husain (2010-2016, MSc), Maj Gen. Qaiser Anees Khurram (2016-2018, BSc), and Maj Gen. Amer Nadeem (2018-present, BSc).

National achievements in space science being so lean, where should bright young Pakistani science buffs be pointed towards? Every day they read of some great achievement — spacecraft landing on asteroids, new planets being discovered, black holes colliding in distant galaxies, etc. But Pakistan’s three most celebrated scientists have precious little to offer. Let’s call them X, Y, Z.

X appears to have lost his earlier passion for bombs and missiles and these days is mostly concerned with finding religious cure to cancer as well as advising women on how to deal with menopause problems. Y is (or was?) under a NAB investigation because he spent Rs4.69 billion gasifying Thar coal but failed to produce a single watt of electricity. He may be in much hotter water once the Reko Diq investigation gets going and his role in the Tethyan Copper affair is revealed. Mishandling Reko Diq currently threatens Pakistan with a mind boggling $5.9bn fine. Z has clawed his way back to power but cannot explain why billions spent upon his institute have not produced a single useful pharmaceutical product.

Lacking guidance from knowledgeable elders, a few of Pakistan’s most gifted kids have found their own way. I have been astonished and thrilled to meet some. Aged 12-18, like hungry animals, they have gorged themselves on distance learning materials offered by Stanford, MIT, Coursera, etc. They seem to owe nothing to their environment, teachers, and even their parents. Some are village bumpkins, others are English-speaking urbanites. Natural genius propels them. But how far?

It’s good that such talent is achieving some recognition. Fawad Chaudhry, the newly appointed minister of science and technology, told me that he plans to start 1500 STEM schools for exceptional students. One hopes that the right students will be selected and that by some miracle good teachers can be found. Chaudhry should realise that the chance of failure will be one hundred per cent if students are graded by ratta-promoting local examination boards. Duffers must never be allowed to judge geniuses; alternatives must be explored.

More encouraging news: Pakistani doctors in the US are fabulously rich but are not known to spend their money wisely or well. That may be changing. Last month, at the annual meeting in Florida, the Association of Physicians of Pakistani Descent of North America (APPNA) put out an appeal to create an institute that would identify and support young people with exceptional math/physics talent. Let’s hope that that pans out.

Pakistan’s chance of a moon shot — unless on the back of a Chinese rocket — will stay zero for a long time. There is no reason to cry about this. Much more important problems need to be addressed. Solving them needs a strong scientific base at every step. Creating this base calls for developing scientific attitudes and dumping non-scientific ones. Symbolically this amounts to putting Sir Syed ahead of Allama Iqbal as a national icon. Impossible? Maybe. But, as they say, you can’t make an omelet without breaking an egg.

The writer teaches physics in Lahore and Islamabad.

Published in Dawn, July 27th, 2019
 
Why can't they?
If 99 years ago a absolute dictator had descended on Pakistan and -

  • forced universal education with European curriculum
  • with emphasis on STEM
  • gender equality
  • adopted Roman script
  • adopted European clothing
  • adopted European manners
  • adopted European laws
  • banned religion from public space
  • brought all religious education under muzzle of the state
  • invited large number of Europeans to teach and transfer skills
Today Pakistan would have been either ahead of Turkey or about same. Placing it ahead of some Western countries. The tragedy is the British came in 1849 and fcuked us up. What mindset, what culture did we have in 1849? Because whatever that was it was cause of us becoming slaves. Before 1849 we were 100% real desi. Yet look what that gave us. The British chewed us as if we were garbage.

Our tragedy has been in 1947 when we got freedom we decided "hey let's go back to what fcuked us up in 1847" and be "100% desi" again. If ut fcuked us up in before it will have the same effect if you repeat it. Yet we have Pakistani's living in the West yet rooting for the very recipe that fcuked us up in 1847.

Now compare this with non white countries that did well. Japan, China, South Koea or Turkey. Each of them have unique and many cases glorious pasts but NOT one has a yearning to go back. Non of them adopted their old failed recipes. Did the Chinese decide to reapply the Qing dynasty? Did the Japanese decide to reapply the Shogun era Samurai? No. Did Turkey decide to go back to Ottoman Empire of 1500s?

No, all of them without any shame copied the west, left right and centre until all ended up being Asiatic iterations of the west. And you can see the spectacular results.
 
If 99 years ago a absolute dictator had descended on Pakistan and -

  • forced universal education with European curriculum
  • with emphasis on STEM
  • gender equality
  • adopted Roman script
  • adopted European clothing
  • adopted European manners
  • adopted European laws
  • banned religion from public space
  • brought all religious education under muzzle of the state
  • invited large number of Europeans to teach and transfer skills
Today Pakistan would have been either ahead of Turkey or about same. Placing it ahead of some Western countries. The tragedy is the British came in 1849 and fcuked us up. What mindset, what culture did we have in 1849? Because whatever that was it was cause of us becoming slaves. Before 1849 we were 100% real desi. Yet look what that gave us. The British chewed us as if we were garbage.

Our tragedy has been in 1947 when we got freedom we decided "hey let's go back to what fcuked us up in 1847" and be "100% desi" again. If ut fcuked us up in before it will have the same effect if you repeat it. Yet we have Pakistani's living in the West yet rooting for the very recipe that fcuked us up in 1847.

Now compare this with non white countries that did well. Japan, China, South Koea or Turkey. Each of them have unique and many cases glorious pasts but NOT one has a yearning to go back. Non of them adopted their old failed recipes. Did the Chinese decide to reapply the Qing dynasty? Did the Japanese decide to reapply the Shogun era Samurai? No. Did Turkey decide to go back to Ottoman Empire of 1500s?

No, all of them without any shame copied the west, left right and centre until all ended up being Asiatic iterations of the west. And you can see the spectacular results.




To make matters worst, you have a lot of low IQ Pakistanis who want to sacrifice Pakistan for A fairy tale of "Muslim Unity", even though those other Muslims especially the Arabs regard us as "lesser" humans.
 
To make matters worst, you have a lot of low IQ Pakistanis who want to sacrifice Pakistan for A fairy tale of "Muslim Unity", even though those other Muslims especially the Arabs regard us as "lesser" humans.
Do you think this would happen if the hypothetical scenario I pasted had been applied?
 
Do you think this would happen if the hypothetical scenario I pasted had been applied?




Absolutely not. As always, your wisdom shines through and you are correct.

What I hate the most is that in the UK you have a significant number of failed young Pakistani men with no future, becoming religious and at the same time committing heinous crimes. These are the ones who become terrorists/rape little White School girls/Sell drugs/mini-cabbing/Fried Chicken sellers or in some cases all the above. They give us a bad name and hold our community down. If they were focused Pakistani nationalists, NONE of the above would be happening, but hey they are Muslims and believe in the "Ummah" so it's all good I guess.
 
Have a look at this picture and think of what I said about total social/political/religious reform. Anything strike you? Sometimes small things say a lot.

504459_6620134_pakistan-turkey-malaysia_updates.jpg
 

This photo shows an old man shaking hand with Imran Khan and Mahatir
And both Imran and Mahatir are much better looking compared to him

Japan, China, South Koea

All these countries use their own language as medium of education
But wear western clothes maybe because their native clothes are inferior but shalwar qameez is even used as military uniform

So why don't Non-Whites (excluding East-Asians) do something about their sorry/pathetic state?

Are you white or inferior non white if you are non white why you haven't did what you are suggesting others to do and instead you settled in some western country
 
This sick comparison needs to stop. India is advanced than Canada or Korea in Space exploration but it doesnt make India's education system better than them. Everyone knows ISRO is the leader in SA and WA and beating this dead horse (SUPARCO) articles need to stop. Akin to toilets phrase used by zombies here.

That sadly is true and was reiterated by N.R.Narayanamurthy, the co-founder of one of India's five largest software companies, Infosys.



Yes, again it is sadly true about SCL.

And what the hell NR has done after Infosys? He is a typical old fart who likes to brag his achievement to newbies. Hated the way they throwed off Vishal Sikka.

Infosys, Wipro were already making billions when Google, FB was in garage. What did they do? Did they develop products and marketed it in USA? Nope. They could have invested in Google, FB, Uber now salesforce with all its money that companies started yesterday have overtaken them in value and revenue.

He did not promote an single zilch product that could have transformed Indian IT and Electronics even more despite having tons of money.
 
You still haven’t answered my question, who gets the credit for the algorithm, google or you?

Google only provided you the environment that fosters R&D, it didn’t come up with the concept of algorithm, nor other important fundamentals that went into the concept of writing algorithms.
It is the individual that uses his capacity to innovate based on previous research done in the field to create something new.
So your concept that Indians didn’t “invent” many of the things as mentioned by @Naman Mathur because the preceding technology or the company they work for not being Indian has nothing to do with the individual achievement of those people.
We as Indians can take pride in another Indian taking the name of his nation of birth or ethnicity forward.
It’s not very different than say Amir Khan who you claim of being Pakistani even though his nationality is not...why do you as a Pakistani feel proud of his achievements then?
His success is purely a brutish creation, from the training to the funding to the marketing.
I was just being considerate to the guy, so as not to sound cocky, everyone knows that irrespective of place or circumstance, the person inventing something takes full credit for it.

Okay. Lets take few nations around India that do not have a space program:
1. Nepal
2. Bangladesh
3. Sri Lanka
4. Bhutan
5. Pakistan

All of them should be far far ahead of India in taking care of their poors, right?

The upshot is : Is there a causal relationship between spending on technology and science and NOT being able to reduce poverty?
Nice point. There is a correlation between scientific development and reduction in poverty though.
 
And what the hell NR has done after Infosys? He is a typical old fart who likes to brag his achievement to newbies. Hated the way they throwed off Vishal Sikka.

Infosys, Wipro were already making billions when Google, FB was in garage. What did they do? Did they develop products and marketed it in USA? Nope. They could have invested in Google, FB, Uber now salesforce with all its money that companies started yesterday have overtaken them in value and revenue.

He did not promote an single zilch product that could have transformed Indian IT and Electronics even more despite having tons of money.
Actually, I do like Indian software industries risk averse work-horse kind of approach. They took up the work that others were asking a lot to do. They did it cheap. Agreed that their engineering practices were shoddy but all said and done, bottomline is very very very hard to argue against. Silicon Valley is more flashy and risk-loving but at the same time they fail spectacularly as well. This risk-averse approach of providing cheap and shoddy alternative to services does work. It brings in business. Indian software industry of 2000s and may be present is having similar pattern as Chinese manufacturing industry of 80s or 90s. Its cheap, its shoddy but it works. May be in 10 or 20 years or so they will get their own risk takers to innovate.
 
Actually, I do like Indian software industries risk averse work-horse kind of approach. They took up the work that others were asking a lot to do. They did it cheap. Agreed that their engineering practices were shoddy but all said and done, bottomline is very very very hard to argue against. Silicon Valley is more flashy and risk-loving but at the same time they fail spectacularly as well. This risk-averse approach of providing cheap and shoddy alternative to services does work. It brings in business. Indian software industry of 2000s and may be present is having similar pattern as Chinese manufacturing industry of 80s or 90s. Its cheap, its shoddy but it works. May be in 10 or 20 years or so they will get their own risk takers to innovate.

Works in what? Infosys and Wipro are "Stagnated". Now AI threatens to take their jobs and it will. Are they prepared? AI is already doing automated testing. I am no IT expert, nor I work in there, but you should take risk with billions sitting in your bank. They had a chance to buy Yahoo and invest in Google. Even if one had done 100m dollars then it would be worth 50B now. Did they create a product like Salesforce or Zoho which they did in India and did not market in NA which was their biggest market.

Risk is messy but not taking risk is even riskier. They are not even in Top 3. IBM, CTS and TCS are on the top.
 
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