Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Ahmet Pasha]

I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.

Unfortunately in Pakistan you are damned if you take a bitter step to improve Pakistan long term. And damned if you stay stuck in the present quagmire.

 

[Path-Finder]

Almost 10k AK-103s are about to come, some are already here..... Not for regular army for now...

FN SECAR?

I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.

these are matters of state security and the fact that the state showed weakness when it should have been very very harsh is the reason why bc dallay like hamid mir etc etc get so brazen.

 

[spectregunship]

That's a great suggestion but the cry baby politicians will lobby heavily against it and it will help Pakistan by discouraging the corrupt Feudal politicians.

We can also educate entire Pakistan and give valuable experience to say a poor village girl who never wore proper shoes to experience civil and city life if we take them at say 15/8 grade give them metric at a military academy and then FSc education with national service whether it be building roads/infrastructure or military duty. Cadet college model with better amenities, better education and system that instills patriotism.

If above sounds a bit harsh modify it/tone it down.

This will eliminate the class differences and the differences between uneducated mullah class and the highly educated but sellout liberal class. Will also help put people from different provinces together and eliminate provincial animosities(maybe stop Punjabis from being offloaded from busses and executed lmao ). Instead of wasting Billions of dollars in education departments that become animal sheds under waderas eventually.

I agree in my view the Czech offered a much more comprehensive package in form of the Bren, it's modular design and related accessories. There was also the skorpion evo 2 that could've easily replaced the MP5.

I agree. Cz BREN 2 BR could have been an amazing replacement and should've served for years to come. It did perform nice as well. Had the opportunity once to hold it (though not shoot). The Cz were all in with some MoU signing as well (whatever happened to that MoU).

about Evo 2 : I would never carry a 9mm to any fight. Ever! But at the same time Cz Bren 2 comes in 7.62 x 39 version. A perfect replacement for the POF T56 we have in use and complete replacement of MP5 with it.

But alas, if only wishes were horses.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I agree. Cz BREN 2 BR could have been an amazing replacement and should've served for years to come. It did perform nice as well. Had the opportunity once to hold it (though not shoot). The Cz were all in with some MoU signing as well (whatever happened to that MoU).

about Evo 2 : I would never carry a 9mm to any fight. Ever! But at the same time Cz Bren 2 comes in 7.62 x 39 version. A perfect replacement for the POF T56 we have in use and complete replacement of MP5 with it.

But alas, if only wishes were horses.

I think Bajwa messed it all up. He didn't focus as much on the rifle replacement program and it might have allowed the kickback seeking uncles at POF to step up. We also would've made money by participating in CZ's assembly infrastructure in future Bren deals. Bren also has a 762x51 battle rifle version as well.

Although some US users of early Bren 2 models complained it is a bit plasticky and makes a toy like sound when shaken.

I think Bajwa and POF uncles screwed things up just to try and remain relevant.

 

[spectregunship]

I think Bajwa messed it all up. He didn't focus as much on the rifle replacement program and it might have allowed the kickback seeking uncles at POF to step up. We also would've made money by participating in CZ's assembly infrastructure in future Bren deals. Bren also has a 762x51 battle rifle version as well.

Although some US users of early Bren 2 models complained it is a bit plasticky and makes a toy like sound when shaken.

I think Bajwa and POF uncles screwed things up just to try and remain relevant.

You are absolutely right. It was all about priorities and force development probably was not one and still isnt.
I mentioned CZ Bren 2 BR that is actually 7.62 x 51. Looked and felt amazing. Beauty.

I remember CZ actually launched a promo video for it too during the days when they were in trials with us too. I loved that video in fact. Let me try to find it too.
Found it. its from 2018.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That'd be the most difficult thing in Pakistan.

I respectfully disagree and also our people will not understand the true reason behind this rule and would blame army for tightening its grip on power.

Just accuse of those people of 9G warfare. Problem solved.

The way our people think...all you need to do is totally misconstrue what the opposing side is saying. Basically, lies work better than the truth, so just play that game. I'd just pay some uncle in the media to say, "I heard 30 years ago that Britain was against national guard, and that Malala is trying to weaken this great initiative."

 

[Zarvan]

@PanzerKiel Sir what about G3 replacement. Can we forget it for good or there are still chances of some Rifle being adopted to replace G3.

 

[Khanate]

You are absolutely right. It was all about priorities and force development probably was not one and still isnt.
I mentioned CZ Bren 2 BR that is actually 7.62 x 51. Looked and felt amazing. Beauty.

I remember CZ actually launched a promo video for it too during the days when they were in trials with us too. I loved that video in fact. Let me try to find it too.
Found it. its from 2018.

The recoil on the Bren is insane.

I don't think the Army would allow another major army to form out of the Ministry of Interior.

The correct approach would be to re-organize FC, Rangers, etc, into a 'National Guard' and then place said force under the control of Army GHQ. In turn, Army GHQ gives the National Guard one mandate: manage the internal security affairs of Pakistan. The advantage of this approach is that the National Guard won't be seen as a threat to the Army, but at the same time, could get its own attack helicopters, transport helicopters, etc.

BTW, this wouldn't be unprecedented in Pakistan. The PN already runs the Maritime Security Agency.

This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.

P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.

If the AK103 direct procurement is true, its not a very encouraging news in my point of view. There is nothing that AK103 brings to the table that the POF SMG Chinese / T56 does not.
Especially when the deal is direct procurement and does not involve any ToT / Offset for us.
I'm not sure if DP is involved in purchases for MoI tps but the decision makers are the ones in uniform. Could've asked for something better. BPJs, Armoured Cars, TIs or communication for that matter.

We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.

 

[spectregunship]

@PanzerKiel Sir what about G3 replacement. Can we forget it for good or there are still chances of some Rifle being adopted to replace G3.

Its dead. Nothing is going to come or replace it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The recoil on the Bren is insane.







This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.

P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.

View attachment 750133






We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.

Yep. The concept of "levies" is antiquated.

Today, 'internal security' is a beast with its own distinct challenges, so it needs specific aptitudes and -- not least -- types of people in charge. You have to deal with local sensitivities, low-intensity warfare, and a host of other issues that you shouldn't burden the regular Army with (especially over the long-run).

As I see it, the job of the Pakistan Army is to defeat the army of an enemy country. It needs to be tuned to 'go for the kill' as swiftly as possible, so its training, weapons, and deployments should reflect that goal.

The job of a potential 'National Guard' is to protect the integrity of our country against natural disasters, or asymmetrical threats, or even popular unrest. This is the force that has the capacity for COIN, intelligence, emergency policing, disaster relief, humanitarian assistance, field hospitals, etc.

Finally, placing a National Guard under GHQ helps the Army standardize equipment (e.g., USAF and ANG).

So, if they order 60 attack helicopters, they can add another 15 for the National Guard. It would not be an opportunity cost because in a state v. state war, the National Guard will operate under the Army -- so it'd be 75 attack helicopters in war.

Likewise for MRAPs. Yes, the MRAPs have a special use-case in COIN, but in a regular war, they can revert to a 4x4 APC. So again, if they order 1,000 MRAPs, they can make sure the design is suitable for use in COIN/CT as well as an APC.

It can work the other way around too. The National Guard may require a new assault rifle with sights, and given that the order is large (e.g., 100,000), GHQ can align it to a future rifle need. GHQ may not equip the regular Army with the new rifles right away, but it can prepare for that by front-loading the investment for the Guard.

Ironically, the presence of a National Guard might even help us get foreign financial support. With a non-India focus from the onset, the US might love the idea and open all sorts of aid (e.g., subsidize MRAPs, rifles, etc). If Congress inquires about the aid, the DoD or Dept of State will say, "this aid goes to the Pakistani National Guard, they have a single mandate, to fight terrorism."

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Ironically, the presence of a National Guard might even help us get foreign financial support. With a non-India focus from the onset, the US might love the idea and open all sorts of aid (e.g., subsidize MRAPs, rifles, etc). If Congress inquires about the aid, the DoD or Dept of State will say, "this aid goes to the Pakistani National Guard, they have a single mandate, to fight terrorism."

That rationale could have worked in '16-17 but now the geo politics vis a vis China-Pak are very different from an American perspective. There is very little chance of anything American to be released to us.

A small bit of hope exists wrt to the AH1Zs and T129 engines. That is only if our Defence and MoFA departments can extract a quid pro quo from the US exit from Afghanistan for helping them leave safely.

Though I don't think Pak military is in the mood to suck up to American tantrums. Future for our defense industry should be JVs with Ukraine, China, South Korea, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and homegrown solutions. America and Europe might sell us something but will throw thousands of tantrums and make us suffer for it first.

 

[Zarvan]

The recoil on the Bren is insane.







This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.

P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.

View attachment 750133






We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.

I agree with you on merging our Para Military Forces specially FC KPK and Baluchistan and Rangers of Punjab and Sindh and Mujahid Force and Gilgit Scouts in one force called National Guards.

That rationale could have worked in '16-17 but now the geo politics vis a vis China-Pak are very different from an American perspective. There is very little chance of anything American to be released to us.

A small bit of hope exists wrt to the AH1Zs and T129 engines. That is only if our Defence and MoFA departments can extract a quid pro quo from the US exit from Afghanistan for helping them leave safely.

Though I don't think Pak military is in the mood to suck up to American tantrums. Future for our defense industry should be JVs with Ukraine, China, South Korea, Japan, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and homegrown solutions. America and Europe might sell us something but will throw thousands of tantrums and make us suffer for it first.

Yes but still we should merge our Para Military Forces into one entity. And yes JV with the countries you mentioned is the way forward. USA is biggest backstabber.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Wt are you ppl on about !

Fc n rangers etc are manned by PA personal from top most position to the junior most officer.
They report directly to GHQ and take orders from them.
MOI has a limited say in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Dreamer.]

Wt are you ppl on about !

They are just daydreaming, idling away the time. Most appropriate I think, since that is what this thread was created for...No?

 

[Zarvan]

The recoil on the Bren is insane.







This has bothered me for years. I don't see any real benefit to the level of fragmentation we see in our regional paramilitary forces. Not only should paramilitaries merge under a central entity, say National Guard, but it makes sense to give them the role of disaster relief or any internal security issue. And having a central organisation under GHQ would bring vast improvements to their capabilities. But knowing how things work in Pakistan, it would take a calamity for us to even think of this otherwise sensible reorganisation.

P.S. This picture is forever etched in my mind. You cannot thank Lt Gen Tariq Khan (R) enough for rescuing FC.

View attachment 750133






We are romancing the Russians hence the expense.

All I know is G 3 must go. We are suing literally a 60 year old technology. In next few years G3 would be 60 years old. In fact in in 1967 we started inducting G3. It's time we say good bye to this Rifle. You can't keep updating or modify the 60 year old design. It has reached its limit. I give a dam right now. Which rifle comes but G3 must go along with Type 56. That is now 70 year old Rifle with some upgrades but still 70 year old.