Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

Your basic concepts about infantry weapons are not clear

In films, a lot of things happens, such as replacement with in minutes - probably in just 1-2 scenes, isn't that what you want ? Stop watching Sultan Rahi movies, come into the real world.

In real life however, many other factors are considered such as effectiveness of a weapon in combat. Why don't you go and ask a section commander who is made in-charge of an LMG or MG-3, what are his views about this weapon. Yes, the "Machine Gun guy" is part of a section of around 10 men. The weapon (LMG) itself doesn't have any limitations whether its static or mobile. LMG is used both in defensive and offensive positions. Even in an assault, a soldier is not considered to run a marathon across the battlefield carrying a weapon; he is expected to be part of a team and use his weapon effectively (marching fire if necessary). That weapon is usually an assault rifle with semi-auto, full-auto and burst modes along with safety. The accuracy as well as rage of LMG increases when its deployed on a bi pod or tri pod as it provides suppressing fire. LMG is carried during an assault but if fired while on move from hips, the accuracy diminishes. LMG is expected to have more range (600m +) than an assault rifle range (400m +). The accuracy of assault rifle is effective when its fired with its butt tucked in shoulder and using sights for aiming. Firing an LMG in this position is possible with bi-pod, hardly otherwise. Then some weapons look good on paper, others prove their worth in battlefield. G-3 and MG-3 itself has proved effective in all types of wars that Pakistan Military has fought. AK-56 is also another effective assault rifle.

You are a government employee, right ? you should talk to security guards armed with G-3 or MG-3 in pickets or better yet talk to soldiers manning these weapons.

I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56

 

[Sine Nomine]

Mg3 will have to go. No it is not enough for modern times when countries are going for more compact and light weight Machine Guns your soldiers are not Sultan Rahi that they can keep taking out enemies with Gandasa. This happens in films not in modern times. For still position yes it could be great but if you want to modernize your Army and make a Machine Gun guy part of Unit which is mobile MG3 has to go.

@Path-Finder

(No offence)
Bahi kabi Zindgi mai rifle use ke hai,let alone lmg?

LMG is carried during an assault but if fired while on move from hips, the accuracy diminishes.

What are you views on useing of RPD,SAW or RPK from hip position during assult?
I have seen few teams using them.

I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56

What options you suggest and what they bring on table as compared to MG3?(Don't bring on rails,plz)

 

[RAMPAGE]

How about developing and testing an AK103 chambered in 7.62x51? The Russians recently came up with a similar variant called AK308.

 

[Zarvan]

How about developing and testing an AK103 chambered in 7.62x51? The Russians recently came up with a similar variant called AK308.

In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.

 

[Army research]

In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.

No need , ak103 is being made locally it will suffice,
We need to focus on optronics and C4ISR more than weapons for now, as PK18 and 21 seem to be good enough,
As for MG1A3, We can upgrade it like the BudesWher has, replace metal parts with advances polymers, bipod tripod parts with polymers , to reduce weight , add mill std rails on optics area and underbarrel for foregripcumbipod, add a muzzle brake ,
There you have a reduced weight , modern standard incredibly effective machine gun in the 7.62x51 category,
The MG3 is one hell of a weapon , just like the Browning .50 which is still being used despite being older than the MG3/42,
The chain saw has been feared since 1942, the sheer rate of fire, ease of replacing barrel and accuracy are what a section commander loves,
What do you intend to replace this with ?
I suggest that we introduce the concept of SAW, ie a squad automatic weapon like the Americans have the M249 ( FN MINIMI PARA ),
One easy way to do this is suppose the pk18 gets pushed into service, make a variant of it with a heavier and longer barrel , 45-60 round drum or mag, and voila you have a SAW,

 

[fitpOsitive]

In my opinion AK 200 series and AK-308 will come. Along with PK 18 as local solution.

Allah Kare, mushkil hai waisy.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

No need , ak103 is being made locally it will suffice,
We need to focus on optronics and C4ISR more than weapons for now, as PK18 and 21 seem to be good enough,
As for MG1A3, We can upgrade it like the BudesWher has, replace metal parts with advances polymers, bipod tripod parts with polymers , to reduce weight , add mill std rails on optics area and underbarrel for foregripcumbipod, add a muzzle brake ,
There you have a reduced weight , modern standard incredibly effective machine gun in the 7.62x51 category,
The MG3 is one hell of a weapon , just like the Browning .50 which is still being used despite being older than the MG3/42,
The chain saw has been feared since 1942, the sheer rate of fire, ease of replacing barrel and accuracy are what a section commander loves,
What do you intend to replace this with ?
I suggest that we introduce the concept of SAW, ie a squad automatic weapon like the Americans have the M249 ( FN MINIMI PARA ),
One easy way to do this is suppose the pk18 gets pushed into service, make a variant of it with a heavier and longer barrel , 45-60 round drum or mag, and voila you have a SAW,

I agree. POF should focus on developing new variants of the PK18. The underlying platform is fine, but with future iterations it can introduce short-stroke piston, lighter materials, a folding butt-stock (if asked upon) and more.

The more we develop internal expertise on the AR platform and the underlying technologies at POF, the easier it'll be for POF to emulate the work of Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch, and other AR makers.

We also need to make sure we're sourcing the materials and parts internally, or have it on our roadmap in the next 3-5 years. In time, the PK18, PK21, LSR, POF10, etc should be 100% indigenous, which would make the POF family an extremely competitive (pricing wise) package on the world market.

 

[Signalian]

What are you views on useing of RPD,SAW or RPK from hip position during assult?
I have seen few teams using them.

If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.

I have talked to these guys and their answer is based on they have no option. Giving them option and you would see the results. The moment SSG got option they got rid of Type 56 and switched to M4. Also now LCB units are doing same. It seem we have some special love for G3 and Type 56 and MG3. Give them option and trust most will get rid of G3 and Type 56

Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ?
What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ?
SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.

 

[Thorough Pro]

YOu just evaporated fanboy warfighting expertise gained through watching Rambo and Commando movies

If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.


Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ?
What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ?
SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.

 

[Signalian]

YOu just evaporated fanboy warfighting expertise gained through watching Rambo and Commando movies

sorry

 

[Sine Nomine]

If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield.

All LMG's in cal 7.62x51/54 are impractical to use from hip position citing huge recoil impulse combined with platform weight,if enemy even fails to hit,spread of your fire from hip using these weapons would only make noise nothing else and can even put your team members life in danger.
I have listed 7.62x39 and 5.56 LMG's,which have low recoil impulse.I was talking about them.

 

[Signalian]

I have listed 7.62x39 and 5.56 LMG's,which have low recoil impulse.I was talking about them.

Lets not go in circles. Why don't you elaborate showing effectiveness or practicality or tactical advantage with a video or something like field manual or any other example.

 

[Zarvan]

If those fire teams say that firing MG from hip is practical and effective in direct combat, then by all means hip fire with MG should be utilized in battlefield. When assaulting an enemy position, soldiers with assault rifles crouch, sit or crawl even, not only for concise targeting but also for cover. A soldier firing an LMG from hip will be the first one to be taken out by enemy, he is not only exposing his fully body but also proving bigger threat. Position the same LMG at a strategic position on bi-pod instead and then concentrate fire on enemy position to allow rifle men to crawl near enemy position and then change position - could bring better results.


Did you get the jist of my question - did those soldiers say that G-3 or MG-3 doesn't perform, isn't effective, isn't practical ?
What other options (which other guns have they fired) have those soldiers utilized - that they want a different option ?
SSG and LCB have different role which involve CQB and that involves different weapons and tactics, not an LMG.

AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.

 

[Army research]

AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.

What if I tell you they still use type 56 and newer 103s in very large numbers, only for drill m4 is used and also used by close protection squads, Zarrar Coy etc the only parts of ssg that come into public limelight

 

[Signalian]

AK 47 also works still most countries have moved on. Having lack of options doesn't make the answer any different. Give them option and trust me none of them would choose G3 or MG3. Entire world is not dumb and stupid that they are moving towards lightweight and compact weapons. If they had so much love for G3 and Type 56 the moment they got an option it went out of the window and M4 came in. And M4 also is not the Gun without issues it requires massive oiling still they stopped using Type 56.

Was AK-47 widely spread in PA ? Since AK-47 had left its mark, Type-56 made its way into inventory. So a variant of AK-47 is still seen in action in PA. I feel your thinking pattern but I can't trust you that soldiers wont choose G-3 or MG-3 due to my own experience and talk with officers/soldiers. G-3 and Type-56 never went outside the window even after introduction of M-4. G-3/Type-56 are still widely and primarily used. M-4 is used in certain cadres only. I have seen Steyr-Aug with some Pakistani security forces also.