Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Bilal.]

Try running any business.. even to apply for tenders we have to pay a fee/draft and struggle without knowing the outcome. Its part of the business.



How is Pak PK-18 Inferior? That said we have 3 weapons in mass circulation. PK if selected will replace the G3. The Ak103 or PK21 will replace the MP5s and Type series.

uncertainty in winning or losing is acceptable but running a sham trial is not.... we pulled an india on these suppliers.

 

[Arsalan]

Well FN damaged its own chances. What I have heard is FN was not agreeing to local SCAR production.

Remember those days when it was ALL OK on all aspects as per what you "heard"?

I seriously doubt that PK 18 and PK 21 could be or would be Pakistan's next Assault Rifle. In fact my humble opinion says eventually it would be of those Rifles which we tested in Rifle trials.

@PanzerKiel

@Horus Sir I humbly request you if you have any updates on this please share.

That is not what you THINK, that is what you WISH.

Can you imagine, millions of Rupees spent by rifle manufacturers on these trials by providing a minimum of 30 rifle sets, millions of Rupees spent by Army to arrange country wide trials with literally hundreds of personnel involved with all three services, millions of man hours spent on writing technical reports, all rifles imported by manufacturers for Pakistan Army sealed at Inspectorate of Armaments until such time and even if a decision ever comes. Hundred of Thousands of Dollars and Euros spent by the likes of FN Herstal, CZ, and others to end up with ZERO and UNCERTAIN RESULT.

If I was a prominent rifle manufacturer, I would have already blacklisted Pakistan Army from further interaction on such a tremendous blunder

Part of the game boss. Let us just say we pulled a "india" over them this time.

 

[Zarvan]

Remember those days when it was ALL OK on all aspects as per what you "heard"?


That is not what you THINK, that is what you WISH.


Part of the game boss. Let us just say we pulled a "india" over them this time.

This I heard from @PanzerKiel and also that MPT 76 was one of best performing Rifles in our trials. Secondly my doubts on PK 18 are because I seriously doubt that Army ordered POF to design a Assault Rifle for them. This PK 18 could very well one of rare occasions where POF may have taken the initiative on it's own.

@DESERT FIGHTER

 

[Arsalan]

This I heard from @PanzerKiel and also that MPT 76 was one of best performing Rifles in our trials. Secondly my doubts on PK 18 are because I seriously doubt that Army ordered POF to design a Assault Rifle for them. This PK 18 could very well one of rare occasions where POF may have taken the initiative on it's own.

@DESERT FIGHTER

Just want you to note and remember how much have changed over last year or two, remember when you were certain about things COMPLETELY different than the things you are certain about now. Let this be a lesson to us all, there are no certainties in this business dear. NEVER!!

 

[Zarvan]

Just want you to note and remember how much have changed over last year or two, remember when you were certain about things COMPLETELY different than the things you are certain about now. Let this be a lesson to us all, there are no certainties in this business dear. NEVER!!

Well this COVID thing have change a lot of things so I am hoping that if talks are started again we may the get the deal of our choice.

 

[Arsalan]

Well this COVID thing have change a lot of things so I am hoping that if talks are started again we may the get the deal of our choice.

The COVID thing have not changed this thing!! It was changed way before COVID outbreak. One important point i beg you to understand is "there are not certainties in this business". So even if General Bajwa calls you to tell you something, do think it is final, a certainty, a God sent truth until it happens. That is how military procurement work. SCAR being best in trials was never going to be enough, you "hearing" that local production, export licience, part manufacturing, all that being "absolutely certain" was never going to be enough. I am not taunting you brother, just trying to explain to you how things are!! Military procurement involves so so many steps, it is never 100% guaranteed.

 

[Zapper]

How is Pak PK-18 Inferior? That said we have 3 weapons in mass circulation. PK if selected will replace the G3. The Ak103 or PK21 will replace the MP5s and Type series.

Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47.

I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with

Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Your initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47.

I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with

Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Your initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right

I suspect the real hang-up with CZ was CZ's unwillingness to allow POF to re-export those rifles. I think we could still salvage a deal if we remove POF from the process and, instead, support a jointly-owned private venture involving CZ and a Pakistani company. So we get these rifles built in Pakistan, and CZ gets a cut from 3rd-party exports.

 

[Philip the Arab]

@Zapper
What about getting renowned designers to develop top notch guns for you based off previous designs like Caracal in the UAE did?

 

[Zapper]

I suspect the real hang-up with CZ was CZ's unwillingness to allow POF to re-export those rifles. I think we could still salvage a deal if we remove POF from the process and, instead, support a jointly-owned private venture involving CZ and a Pakistani company. So we get these rifles built in Pakistan, and CZ gets a cut from 3rd-party exports.

That'd be the best way to go forward. I heard the order requirement is for 500k rifles (correct me if I'm wrong) but if true, you could negotiate a good price given CZ isn't doing great in the civilian market like that of FN or HK or AK. With that size of an order, there's no reason to look into exports. Hire consultants and design an improvised yet cost efficient version of the CZ and market it as your own. Setting up a rifle manufacturing facility isn't that hard when compared to others but it's important the right private company is selected to ensure quality control

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Of course they're inferior when compared to the likes of SCAR or CZ. Idk if you ever held a rifle, let alone an AK or an AR

Yeah never ever, I do have some toy AKs, AMDs, M4s and M16 apart from some toy shotguns and handguns.
Ask @MilSpec

but AK-103 is the most basic it could ever get, only a notch above a locally manufactured AK-47.

I still loathe IA's decision to go for the AK-203 and hope that deal gets cancelled. Infact, the rifle IA will be getting isn't even a complete AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 & 203 to keep the costs low. If there's any AK rifle that's worthy inducting into the armed forces, it's the AK-12 which the Russian army went with

Its replacing a secondary weapon ans AK103 is a fine weapon, even your SF use.

Secondly, PK-18 is nothing but a basic rip-off of an AR-10 platform and if you seriously think that could go against the likes of SCAR, HK417, CZ...I can only pity your ignorance. Your initial plan to have the CZ license produced at POF is still a better deal if you're able to get the price right

If insiders are to be believed we chose Turkish MPT .. that said there are plently of AR10 type platforms used by both US and UK.

If it works and fulfills Pak mils requirement than im all for it.

 

[Zapper]

@Zapper
What about getting renowned designers to develop top notch guns for you based off previous designs like Caracal in the UAE did?

There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA

I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA

I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced

Sadly you are wrong, these are produced by a small US company that sells these rifles for 1000-1200 $.

 

[Zapper]

that said there are plently of AR10 type platforms used by both US and UK.

You could get a sub $500 AR-10/15 from PSA or BCA vs a $1500+ from Sig or FN...which one would you go?

Its replacing a secondary weapon ans AK103 is a fine weapon

So what's replacing the primary weapon? The PK-18!!

even your SF use

Tavor and M4 are still the primary weapon of choice for our SF

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There's this new Indian small arms start-up "SSS Defense" who's sniper rifles are currently under testing with Para SF & NSG. They also developed Assault Rifles and Carbines which are being pitched to IA

I believe they went the Caracal route and hired western consultants to design their first articles though the IP is Indian and will be locally produced

All said Im very happy at Pak finally doing something and developing its own small arms.

From G3 carbines, snipers to heavy machine guns and battle rifles.