Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[PAR 5]

Hazrat @Zarvan It seems Zaid Hamid has jumped into the debate, hopefully his considerations are not followed.Kudos Hazrat

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Guess someone woke up late! Go back to sleep Zahid Hamid, we got this covered

 

[Zarvan]

But 7.62x51 rounds have 2 major problems in modern warfare (same as 7.62x39)
1-These rounds are heavy and big. More effort is required to carry them compared to same number of rounds of modern ammunition like 5.45x39 or 5.56x45
2-These rounds are killer shots. They pack huge impact and kill the target most of the time. while modern warfare is all about inflicting more strain on enemy then casualties. A Dead soldier is a motivation booster for his fellow men and one man less. a fatally Wounded soldier is a Burden to carry, Costly to Heal, Demoralizing etc toll on enemy economy and armies you get the point. Heavy rounds might be good choice to counter insurgencies and terrorism but not for field armies for War

Thats why NATO countries subsequently moved to lighter 5.56x45 and Russians moved to 5.45x39 rounds and Chinese are using 5.8x42. WE should also adopt modern lighter ammunition and leave the heavier ones for specialized operations and requirement in limited use i.e Anti-Terrorist Operations

Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job

 

[denel]

Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job

We had the same dilemna. Previously back up to 70s' we were on 7.56mm using FN - R1; then our engagements in Angola and bush war showed that 5.56mm were better for the kind of ops we were being engaged with. That is why LMGs were relegated the 7.56mm role. There is never a silver bullet for everything. Personally it made a huge difference lugging around the 7.56mm vs 5.56mm and with larger capacity.

 

[Zarvan]

well you don't have to throw away the entire lot, there is a potential for 3.8 S/A rifle in consumer market, be it Pakistan or US.
PoF would have got good ROI if Punjab had allowed them the sale of 308 Sporter with in Punjab.....few can be upgraded and sold to LEA for DMR role, this would include ASF, ANF, or your CTD.....problem with Pof is the marketing to the right sector and then the policy hurdles set by the govt......

 

[monitor]

Your 2nd point is exactly why Pakistan Army wants to have this caliber they are least interested in injuring the enemy but go for kill. We give a dam about injured enemy we love a dead enemy. What we need to be done is Police has to be given 5.56 X 45 caliber and also raise full SWAT units and let them to internal job

Actually injuring a enemy is more beneficial then killing him because by injured soldiers need to evacuate to safety which make pressure for the army on the contrary a dead soldier is dead nothing to to about him at least a t the heat moment of the war .

 

[Signalian]

Actually injuring a enemy is more beneficial then killing him because by injured soldiers need to evacuate to safety which make pressure for the army on the contrary a dead soldier is dead nothing to to about him at least a t the heat moment of the war .

On the flip side, most wounded soldiers die before they even get medical assistance. A wounded soldier will defend his territory more aggressively and fear less for his life, which makes him even more deadlier than an unscathed soldier.
Lastly, a dead soldier manning an MG nest, or 12.7mm HMG or a bigger caliber weapon is preferred than a wounded soldier who will still be able to man that weapon, though less efficiently, but can stall an advance and keep the enemy tied down and kill few more soldiers till he loses blood and dies.

 

[monitor]

On the flip side, most wounded soldiers die before they even get medical assistance. A wounded soldier will defend his territory more aggressively and fear less for his life, which makes him even more deadlier than an unscathed soldier.
Lastly, a dead soldier manning an MG nest, or 12.7mm HMG or a bigger caliber weapon is preferred than a wounded soldier who will still be able to man that weapon, though less efficiently, but can stall an advance and keep the enemy tied down and kill few more soldiers till he loses blood and dies.

Ok both options have merit demerit so a weapon which can configure easily to different calibre will be most suitable.

 

[Signalian]

But 7.62x51 rounds have 2 major problems in modern warfare (same as 7.62x39)
1-These rounds are heavy and big. More effort is required to carry them compared to same number of rounds of modern ammunition like 5.45x39 or 5.56x45

For the sake of carrying more ammo and effort required, this is a major reason why sharp shooting training is given at ranges. Not every army is trigger happy when engaging the enemy.

Secondly, carrying the ammunition is not a big factor when results are considered. These are small calibre rounds, not mortar, artillery or Tank rounds, for which the weapon becomes useless if ammunition is fired off completely.

2-These rounds are killer shots. They pack huge impact and kill the target most of the time. while modern warfare is all about inflicting more strain on enemy then casualties. A Dead soldier is a motivation booster for his fellow men and one man less. a fatally Wounded soldier is a Burden to carry, Costly to Heal, Demoralizing etc toll on enemy economy and armies you get the point. Heavy rounds might be good choice to counter insurgencies and terrorism but not for field armies for War

On the contrary, smaller caliber is used in urban warfare and CQB, while heavier caliber is used in open terrain and long distance engagement. This is due :
1. Effectiveness of smaller round at smaller ranges.
2. Ease to handle a smaller caliber weapon (MP-5 Vs G-3) in confined spaces.
3. Less collateral damage in urban environment.

If you have seen or been close to actual combat, you would know that most wounded soldiers unfortunately don't survive. Medics can get engaged with them and try to save them or carry them back, but do you know what happens after that?
These wounded soldiers are given desk appointments, communication and clerical tasks. This in fact counters the fact that medicine or resources were spent as this actually helps the enemy bring back the soldier in combat or use him elsewhere instead of wasting 6 months to train another.

 

[Path-Finder]

We had the same dilemna. Previously back up to 70s' we were on 7.56mm using FN - R1; then our engagements in Angola and bush war showed that 5.56mm were better for the kind of ops we were being engaged with. That is why LMGs were relegated the 7.56mm role. There is never a silver bullet for everything. Personally it made a huge difference lugging around the 7.56mm vs 5.56mm and with larger capacity.

I thought SA used 7.62x51!
.............................................
I believe the possibility of a round of 6mm range is the way forward as a balance between 5.56 & 7.62. Or....maybe the .280 British can be resurrected

Alternatively using 7.62x39 for close range and 7.62x51 for extended range makes sense. But having two calibres can be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[ali_raza]

For the sake of carrying more ammo and effort required, this is a major reason why sharp shooting training is given at ranges. Not every army is trigger happy when engaging the enemy.

Secondly, carrying the ammunition is not a big factor when results are considered. These are small calibre rounds, not mortar, artillery or Tank rounds, for which the weapon becomes useless if ammunition is fired off completely.

On the contrary, smaller caliber is used in urban warfare and CQB, while heavier caliber is used in open terrain and long distance engagement. This is due :
1. Effectiveness of smaller round at smaller ranges.
2. Ease to handle a smaller caliber weapon (MP-5 Vs G-3) in confined spaces.
3. Less collateral damage in urban environment.

If you have seen or been close to actual combat, you would know that most wounded soldiers unfortunately don't survive. Medics can get engaged with them and try to save them or carry them back, but do you know what happens after that?
These wounded soldiers are given desk appointments, communication and clerical tasks. This in fact counters the fact that medicine or resources were spent as this actually helps the enemy bring back the soldier in combat or use him elsewhere instead of wasting 6 months to train another.

and the fear factor which enemy knows very well that u r hit u r done.not like oh ok lets face it it will just injure me.

 

[denel]

I thought SA used 7.62x51!
.............................................
I believe the possibility of a round of 6mm range is the way forward as a balance between 5.56 & 7.62. Or....maybe the .280 British can be resurrected

Alternatively using 7.62x39 for close range and 7.62x51 for extended range makes sense. But having two calibres can be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

My apologies have been exhausted for past several days of construction work going on the farm and mistype - Correction 7.62x51 - R1 rifle. Prior to that was 0.303 which was discontinued in the 50's. Still it is a widely used round on the farms and hunting. I still have No 4 Mk2 in the safe.

 

[Army research]

My apologies have been exhausted for past several days of construction work going on the farm and mistype - Correction 7.62x51 - R1 rifle. Prior to that was 0.303 which was discontinued in the 50's. Still it is a widely used round on the farms and hunting. I still have No 4 Mk2 in the safe.

I personally love the number 5 jungle carbine in the .303, It's even so light and easy to use for close quarter combat though people say it has a shifting zero , mine works good

 

[Amaa'n]

Zarvan bhai, the thing is we cant just base our decisions from watching youtube videos, there is more to the bullet ballistics...lets just take a simple example
1) 7.62 x 25 aka 30 bore is a high velocity round, capable enought to penerate a nij3 body armor, you shoot someone at close range, the velocity is so high, it is going to pass through the person's body and hit the second target or ricochet, but does it have a knock off / knock down effect? No it does not when you compare it with 9 x 19 ....9mm para or Luger is a low velocity and heavier round but they have more punching power then a 30 bore......then you compare this 9mm to .45acp that has even more kick to it and more damage but less penetrating......

2) moving on to 300aac tlblackout, then below is a simple ballistics chart if a 123gr ammo
If you compare the Velocity , Bullet drop againt the distance and energy then it might make since to you.....
With 7.62 x 39 you are getting a bulket drop of 7.12 inches at 200 yards as compared to 5.8 inches drop of 300aac....300aac being a lighter catridge will get less wind drift as compared to 7.62 , a more heavier round......
Moving further on at 300 yards 7.62 has a drop of 26 inches with 558ft lbf and 1400 velocity ....
Compare that with 300aac that has a 21 inches drop at 300 yards with 2240 fps velocity and 884ft lbf.....I leave for you to decide

 

[Armchair]

6.5 gives the best balance imho.

 

[Zarvan]

Zarvan bhai, the thing is we cant just base our decisions from watching youtube videos, there is more to the bullet ballistics...lets just take a simple example
1) 7.62 x 25 aka 30 bore is a high velocity round, capable enought to penerate a nij3 body armor, you shoot someone at close range, the velocity is so high, it is going to pass through the person's body and hit the second target or ricochet, but does it have a knock off / knock down effect? No it does not when you compare it with 9 x 19 ....9mm para or Luger is a low velocity and heavier round but they have more punching power then a 30 bore......then you compare this 9mm to .45acp that has even more kick to it and more damage but less penetrating......

2) moving on to 300aac tlblackout, then below is a simple ballistics chart if a 123gr ammo
If you compare the Velocity , Bullet drop againt the distance and energy then it might make since to you.....
With 7.62 x 39 you are getting a bulket drop of 7.12 inches at 200 yards as compared to 5.8 inches drop of 300aac....300aac being a lighter catridge will get less wind drift as compared to 7.62 , a more heavier round......
Moving further on at 300 yards 7.62 has a drop of 26 inches with 558ft lbf and 1400 velocity ....
Compare that with 300aac that has a 21 inches drop at 300 yards with 2240 fps velocity and 884ft lbf.....I leave for you to decideView attachment 466511 View attachment 466512

I know that but Pakistan should check it because it's Russia which mainly design 7.62 x 39 caliber Rifles and other than Russia not many countries are designing Rifles which have this caliber but 300 Blackout is spreading like wildfire and even SCAR version of 300 Blackout will come. SIG and HK also launching Rifles of 300 Blackout so is companies in UK and also I think Berreta also launching so if we are not satisfied with Rifles of 7.62 X 39 category than 300 Blackout should be tested. If not satisfied than stick to 5.56 X 45 and 7.62 x 51 and drop 7.62 x 39.