Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[That Guy]

My be German Govt pressure is reason other one is perhaps G3s poor performance in mountain warfare.

Probably not it. When the G3 was first chosen, mountain warfare was not that big of a deal, because Pakistan's main enemy was India, and wars in mountainous areas between the two only occurred in the north. Today's requirements are different, and a number of HK rifles fulfill that requirement.

I also doubt that the German government was against selling to Pakistan. Let's not forget, Pakistan manufactures a number of German HK systems, and Germany, just 4-5 years ago tried to sell Pakistan a few modern submarines (Pakistan had no money).

The relationship between German arms manufacturers and Pakistan defense industry is very close. To this day, Pakistan continues to manufacture German arms, for sale around the world.

If we are testing FN SCAR than money is not the issue . I think Pakistan is not ready to trust Germany otherwise I can't see any reason why HK 417 won't be tested. By the way @balixd can you try to get the list of Guns which we are testing I mean full list not just the pictures you saw because it's impossible that we won't test HK 417 and MPT-76
@Sulman Badshah @Tipu7

Germany has less reasons to trust Pakistan, rather than the other way around. Pakistan trusts Germany, but trust isn't how you start a business deal. You go in expecting the other side to screw you over, that is something India and China understand, but Pakistan continues to fail and understanding.

AK are not accurate, M4 are short barrel and not suitable as a standard infantry weapons. If you meant M16A4 than they fire 5.56 round, which is too light for a real fight. US soldiers and marines learned from Iraq war that a single 5.56 would not put down an enemy. Sometimes Iraqi fighters would take cocktail of adrenaline drug before a fire fight, in that case even 3 to 4 round would not put down an enemy fighters. 7.62 round is a must for any real firefight.
@Horus 7.62 round is heavy and more stable in flight making it more accurate and it delivers a heavier punch. Recoil is bit problem, but i think SCAR manages that problem well.

Just a small correction: I wouldn't say that the AK is inaccurate, rather it is accurate up to a certain range, the samething applies to every other gun, including the AK's main rival, the M-16.

 

[That Guy]

What are the chances nothing comes out of this trials because our debt is going to be matured soon and Many programs would be put on hold or deferred

Um, I'd like to correct you there. If you actually believe that $50 billion debt figure, then I can (thankfully) tell you that the figure is wrong. The Pakistan's finance Ministry clarified the facts, and shut down Bloomberg's misleading article.

Finance Ministry denies report on debt situation of Pakistan | Islamabad | thenews.com.pk

Pakistan's economy is going to be fine.

Besides, even if we were to believe bloomberg, both the IMF and World Bank has already stated that they will back Pakistan's efforts on avoiding defaulting on maturing debt.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Probably not it. When the G3 was first chosen, mountain warfare was not that big of a deal, because Pakistan's main enemy was India, and wars in mountainous areas between the two only occurred in the north. Today's requirements are different, and a number of HK rifles fulfill that requirement.

I also doubt that the German government was against selling to Pakistan. Let's not forget, Pakistan manufactures a number of German HK systems, and Germany, just 4-5 years ago tried to sell Pakistan a few modern submarines (Pakistan had no money).

The relationship between German arms manufacturers and Pakistan defense industry is very close. To this day, Pakistan continues to manufacture German arms, for sale around the world.



Germany has less reasons to trust Pakistan, rather than the other way around. Pakistan trusts Germany, but trust isn't how you start a business deal. You go in expecting the other side to screw you over, that is something India and China understand, but Pakistan continues to fail and understanding.


Just a small correction: I wouldn't say that the AK is inaccurate, rather it is accurate up to a certain range, the same thing applies to every other gun, including the AK's main rival, the M-16.

Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal area,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd). PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
@balixd

Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora

 

[That Guy]

This is what i have said to horus as well, scar may look good on the paper but still it is going to cost us all lot and budget put a constraint on our purchasing power --- but then dont forget, we are not going to replace our weapons overnight.....it is a very long process, taking years or perhaps decade to switch from one rifle to another......nust take for instance, there are still units with G3 wooden furniture, they did not even had the stock replaced with polymer and free floating......i see such weapons in pindi cannt and during my visit to AJK last year, and stayed in army mess at Keran.....the frontline troops were still using the wooden furniture ones.....we havnt been able to upgrade the existing seapon platform, forget about replacement......
But then this is a plus point, as it wont be effected by our current financial crisis......chief would not have given the order if it was not thought out

Well, it's not like Pakistan would be buying the rifle all at once, it'll be batch by batch. Inducting a new standard rifle starts from the bottom. New batches of recruits are usually the first to get their hands on the rifles, so the number manufactured and sold to the military starts small anyway.

Induction also takes years, take the IMI Tavor; the Tavor has been in Israeli service since 2003, but it took 6+ years for it to completely replace a majority of Israeli standard issue rifles. In 2012, The Israelis finally announced that they would start equipping their reserve forces with the Tavor, that's 9 years since coming into service.

Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will simply will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd). PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
@balixd

Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora

I agree, but my point is that calling any gun "inaccurate" is inaccurate.

 

[TaimiKhan]

@Horus @Zarvan i had the pleasure of looking at the pics of the weapons being tested, there is no winner yet.....and to my amazement, the weapons calibre ranged from 5.56 to 7.62x51.......current weapon system under trial are....SCAR-H , QBZ 03, AK 102, CZ 805 bren A2..there is no mk417 .....yep no HK :O

Edit - ok there is no MPT, the gun i thought is mpt, is actually not mpt......am having diffulty identifying the weapon....looks very similar to scar....

Edit 2: that gun is actually CZ 805 bren A2......how stupid of me.....and the Gun i thought is AK 12, is actually QBZ 03.......yep u read it correct

What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match.

My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.

 

[Zarvan]

What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match.

My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.

Yes Sir no Gun can match power of FN SCAR so it seem if these are only Guns being tested than I can clearly see FN SCAR coming

 

[franklin]

What confuses me is 03 weapon systems are light calibre and 01 heavy calibre, i don't see any match.

My guess is the current weapons being tested all would be the light calibre meaning 5.56mm / 5.45mm & may be 5.8mm for Chinese. In next stage they may be bringing in contenders for the 7.62mm calibre, reason being they will first check the effectiveness of the 5.56mm etc and the best suitable weapon system in that category, then check the 7.62mm and see what is the best which suits us. Compare pros and cons of both light and heavy calibres and then make a final decision.

My guess is that the experiences gained from ongoing WOT has taught the Pakistan army the need for lighter calibrr when compared to 7.62 nato. That is why almost all the troops deployed in the fata are armed with AK's. In view of this they may choose to field both a 7.62 nato and a lighter calibrr like 5.56 or 7.62 AK. That way they can ensure both range and volume of fire in a given rifle squad.

Regarding type-03 even though it I Chinese made mechanically it uses short stroke gas piston like modern op rod AR's so it should be more accurate than regular AK's apart from newer A 556 series. And it I available in both 7.62 nato as well as 7.62 AK so it might fill both the roles.

 

[Desertfalcon]

PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m

That would get my vote. The 5.56mm has always suffered from a well-earned reputation of being too light a calibre for the battlefield. In all but close quarters, it is too short ranged as well, particularly with the rise in popularity of shorter barrelled weapons like the M4. American special ops forces, operating in places like Afghanistan, procured the SCAR-H for exactly those reasons.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

View attachment 294796
QBZ 03 Assault Rifle: China

View attachment 294798 ​

The QBZ-03 assault rifle, also known as the Type 03, is a Chinese gas operated, selective-fire weapon and is the latest assault rifle designed and developed for the 5.8×42mm DBP87 round.


Unlike the bullpup QBZ-95, the QBZ-03 is a weapon of conventional design and is loosely inspired by the Type 81 assault rifle]. The weapon is designed to be easily used by soldiers already familiar with previously issued rifles and machine guns. The QBZ-03 has a two-piece receiver largely made up of forged aluminum alloy with the stock, pistol grip, and handguards being made of a polymer compound. The gas block has a two position regulator, one for firing standard ammunition, the other to allow the use of rifle grenades. The sights are of a hooded front sight with a flip up rear diopter sight similar to the American M16 rifle. A scope rail is available to allow the use of various optics. The QBZ-03 has seen some issue within the People's Armed Police, People's Liberation Army Marine Corps, People's Liberation Army Air Force Paratroopers, and second line PLA ground units. An export-aimed version of the QBZ-03 also exists, first introduced in 2005 by the joint CJAIE (China Jing-An Import-Export) and Jiang-She Group Companies. The export version is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO and feeds by STANAG magazines. The cyclic rate on the issued model is semi-automatic or fully automatic only, while the export model has an integrated three round burst mode. The type's most notable public display was by the PLA Airforce Airborne Troops during the October 1st 2009 60th Anniversary Parade. The assault rifle was also featured in the 2015 Victory Day Parade.

View attachment 294797 ​

Live fire performance.................

​

This one is already in service - limited numbers..

 

[RAMPAGE]

This one is already in service - limited numbers..

With whom?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

With whom?

03 ..!


Also from what I've heard these are still initial "studies".. Although they army has made up its mind to replace the G-3...(orders by COAS).

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Most urban firefights take place within 300m. A genuine Russian made AK in steady hands will do just fine in this scenario. But when we are talking about Pakistan Army Standard Issue weapons, you are talking about hills of Kashmirs, terrain of Tribal area,Balochistan, vast plains of Punjab and open deserts of Sindh. AK will barely hit a target above 300 meters in ideal conditions, let alone in a warzone. PA needs 16in SCAR-H Standard for 600 m (660 yd). PA can fight ragtag terrorist with AKs but when we are talking about another professional military across the LOC with calibrated standard issue weapon, scope and a bullet proof vest. You need a rifle that can outrange their INSAS and AKs with accuracy, can have enough velocity to penetrate their helmet even after flying 500m (since penetrating vest is unlikely ) and can maintain it's straight flight even on a windy day.
@balixd

Some basic difference b/w 7.62 and 5.56 round.
What are some differences between 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm ammunition from a practical, real world perspective? - Quora

The words, Indian army and professional military dont mix.

03 ..!


Also from what I've heard these are still initial "studies".. Although they army has made up its mind to replace the G-3...(orders by COAS).

So we wont be replacing the G-3?

 

[Zarvan]

The words, Indian army and professional military dont mix.


So we wont be replacing the G-3?

We are replacing G3 but what @DESERT FIGHTER is saying that these are initial tests and Pakistan is also looking that with which caliber we should stick with

 

[Irfan Baloch]

We are replacing G3 but what @DESERT FIGHTER is saying that these are initial tests and Pakistan is also looking that with which caliber we should stick with

fouji consensus is sticking with 7.63 because of its stopping power and penetration. I get that.

my ONLY observation is that the average skinny frame of our jawan doesn't handle the recoil of the G3 very well.
what good is a heavy round when it will shoot past the target? compare that to 5.56 round which is lighter, economical and has less kick meaning the firer has better chance of placing it at the vital parts of his enemy. its opponents whine about its lack of stopping power and penetration .. ignoring the fact that its hitting the target.

when the Americans switched to 5.56 rounds in Vietnam then they scored more kills. the actual war footage of armymen firing G3 in WoT is less than impressive. the G3 is almost succeeding in flying away from the soldier.. compare that to the other guns like carbines or assault rifles like type 56.. our Jawans are doing much better.
see this comparison video. to show what I mean.

 

[Path-Finder]

The way I see it army is sticking with two calibers 7.62x51(FN SCAR) & 7.62x39(BREN-805) 5.56 could be for police and special forces possibly.

Other thing is FN SCAR and Bren-805 resemble each other very closely!