Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
The CZ 805 BREN was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.

The "Pakistani" CZ 807 BREN on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new CZ BREN 2 for Czech army.

The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.

The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.

Is BREN available in 7.62 X 51 version or not ?

 

[Path-Finder]

Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
The CZ 805 BREN was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.

The "Pakistani" CZ 807 BREN on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new CZ BREN 2 for Czech army.

The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.

The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.

thanks for your input. the target in the pic

says ammo used 7.62x51 (0.308 win) 168 grain match grade, this has sparked a debate until you have confirmed that a 7.62x51 NATO BREN is in existence or the 807 BREN can fire this calibre of ammo as well.

Is BREN available in 7.62 X 51 version or not ?

Hazrat @Zarvan he is saying that the new BREN 807 can fire the 7.62x51 as well with changes made to the chassis. either way he is confirming that x51 is not out of reach for CZ BREN!!!

 

[Zarvan]

thanks for your input. the target in the pic

says ammo used 7.62x51 (0.308 win) 168 grain match grade, this has sparked a debate until you have confirmed that a 7.62x51 NATO BREN is in existence or the 807 BREN can fire this calibre of ammo as well.


Hazrat @Zarvan he is saying that the new BREN 807 can fire the 7.62x51 as well with changes made to the chassis. either way he is confirming that x51 is not out of reach for CZ BREN!!!

Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Debate of whether to use larger 7.62 x 51 round or smaller 5.56 x45 round has been going around in among the NATO forces for a long time along with the argument of semi-automatic versus fully automatic.

I admit that I have only fired bolt action rifles on the occasional deer shoot in Scotland because UK licensing laws don’t allow self-loading firearms for private use. Therefore I am only speaking with second hand references. However I had been member of the RAC club at Pell Mell for many years where I came across quite a few retired British Army & Navy Officers.

During the Falkland war, UK Military was using LIA1 SLR (FN FAL) semi-automatic rifle with the standard NATO 7.62 x 51 rounds. When I inquired as to why they did not use fully automatic version; it was explained to me that the semi-automatic setting is plenty fast and you have total control of the weapon; actual difference between emptying 20 round L1A1 rifle on semi-automatic or fully automatic mode being only about 4 seconds.

Additionally, on full automatic mode, large round of say 7.62 calibre tends the rifle muzzle to move upwards and therefore causes wastage of ammunition. Standard UK Army issue was ‘semi-automatic’ because of its accuracy and less wastage. However there is no denying that on short-range (less than 50 meters) and when ambushed by the enemy, automatic fire is needed. That is why most modern military rifles have built-in semi as well as fully auto option. In my view, both the 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 firing rifles would suffer from the same problem. Hence there is little to choose between the two calibres.

Understandably, for a soldier in the middle of a fire fight “not” running out of ammunition is extremely important. Disadvantage of being on full auto is that most soldiers don't aim; they just spray bullets all over the place and run out of ammunition sooner.

In addition to having lesser ‘kick’; smaller 5.56 calibre bullets have the big advantage of being lighter and therefore a soldier can carry more of them. In this case it is a choice between ensuring that the enemy is sufficiently incapacitated after being hit by a single bullet that he is not to able to fire back and being able to carry more ammo.

Even though I have firm belief that Pak Army ammo experts know best; I am glad that they are keeping the 7.62 round. Because I have seen the effects of a 7 mm bullet on the deer at the distance of 70 – 80 meters and I would go for a 7.62 round especially over the hilly terrain or on sandy flats.

Most of the assault rifles of the last 50 years such as HKG3,G38 & 416, AK-47/ 74 / 103, AR-16/18, M- 14/M16, Steyr Aug, Galil, SIG 550, HK416, FN FAL and FN Scar are not that much better than each other. Of course newer rifles are lighter & with less kick, one can carry more of the new 0.556 less lethal round but can one honestly say that a soldier carrying FN Scar will be victor against the enemy carrying G-3 or Galil or even the ubiquitous AK-47.

The answer is surely ‘No’ as there are too many variables involved in here. No one rifle or a specific type of ammo can be said to be superior with certainty

Let’s us examine the experience of real combat situations. During the long Vietnam war, Vietcong guerrilla equipped largely with the AK-47 (Chinese type 56) assault rifle successfully fought with US troops carrying M-14 & M-16. Same thing happened in Somalia and now happening in Afghanistan. In the Falklands, both the British as well as Argentinian infantry were using FN FAL rifle. You can’t really say that success of Pak Army in the Zarbe Azb is due to the G-3 being superior to Taliban’s Kalashnikovs.

The above long winded preamble is not meant to belittle the need for replacement of the aging G3 rifle. Every Pakistani would like their soldiers to have the best assault rifle in the world. My point is simply to stress that Hon TheDarkKnight is correct is his assertion the limited resources available to Pak Army may provide more bang for the buck if other urgently needed equipment such artillery is given priority.

Finally, whichever way one looks at it; it appears that small arms, especially the assault rifle, design reached its peak during the decades of cold war era and therefore it is not easy to choose one over the other. Besides, a new assault rifle will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years and I am glad the Pak Army experts are taking their time to make up their mind.

Niaz sb actually the AK type weapons were introduced by PA because G-3 proved to be a pain in the butt... Too long,weight,recoil. ... Soldiers finding it hard to take out targets while on move ... Too long for CQB ops... That all lead to the introduction of AK series... And subsequently to the decision to replace G3.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.

You are acting like a dumbass child .. The stubborn kind ... Even parents end up beating for his constant annoying rants.

How many military's worldwide are using SCAR to equip their regulars? Not even a single one.. Not even US Military.. Because it's too expensive ... I have my doubts that it wouldn't be selected except for maybe the special forces.. Unless you think Pak can afford to equip a million troops with a 25-3000 dollar complex gun.

Logically ARX has more chance than scar.

 

[Zarvan]

Niaz sb actually the AK type weapons were introduced by PA because G-3 proved to be a pain in the butt... Too long,weight,recoil. ... Soldiers finding it hard to take out targets while on move ... Too long for CQB ops... That all lead to the introduction of AK series... And subsequently to the decision to replace G3.



You are acting like a dumbass child .. The stubborn kind ... Even parents end up beating for his constant annoying rants.

I was just curious and now satisfied and waiting for result of other tender in which Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR are finalists and one would come Berreta problem is that it's way to heavy

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Shibli ought to consider getting into the reflexive sights/red-dot sight business.

Don't IOP produces a few.

I was just curious and now satisfied and waiting for result of other tender in which Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR are finalists and one would come Berreta problem is that it's way to heavy

Type 56 replaced the MP-5 ( I don't even know why the Fk somebody chose to produce it in the first place -- kickbacks maybe)....... As a stop gap.... But who knows ... In this era of versatile weapons .. The Army may select 1 rifle as standard weapon rather than 2 for different jobs

Path-Finder. Keep in mind difference between the CZ 805 BREN and the CZ 807 BREN. I agree, It can be little bit confused.
The CZ 805 BREN was very first weapon of new BREN family. Is in use in the Czech army (2012) or the mexican anti-drug units. The video, you mentioned above, is about the CZ 805 BREN and have nothing to do with the Pakistan tender.

The "Pakistani" CZ 807 BREN on other hand, is kind new version with substantially better ergonomics, lower weight, better functionality, better inner mechanisms, etc., etc. CZ 807 BREN is "alter ego" of new CZ BREN 2 for Czech army.

The CZ 807 BREN is enhanced thanks the real combat experience (Afghanistan) with the CZ 805 BREN and thanks real knowledge about spec-ops operation.

The pics, you post above, is probably the CZ 807 BREN in soviet calibre 7,62x39 - because this soviet ammo (cartridge has a "bottle" shape) need curve magazine.

Any x51 cal variant ... Under development or in service?

 

[Zarvan]

Don't IOP produces a few.



Type 56 replaced the MP-5 ( I don't even know why the Fk somebody chose to produce it in the first place -- kickbacks maybe)....... As a stop gap.... But who knows ... In this era of versatile weapons .. The Army may select 1 rifle as standard weapon rather than 2 for different jobs



Any x51 cal variant ... Under development or in service?

No they issued two tenders. One to replace Type 56 and one to replace G3 I didn't even knew that I just came to know today. BREN was participating in 7.62 x 39 alone and has won this tender but in 7.62 x 51 Berreta and SCAR are shortlisted and are in talks with Pakistan for the deal.

 

[JohnEurope]

Path-Finder: I really don´t know, if the CZ offer the Pakistani army some rifle of the BREN family in 7,62x51. But I´m pretty sure, If the Pakistani army want BREN in 7,62x51, they get it. It is all about, what the customer need and want.

True is, the BREN in 7,62x51 is fresh news, and there is no news or articles about BREN in 7,62x51. And I really don´t know, if BREN 7,62x51 will be mark as (let´s say) CZ 807B BREN or CZ 808 BREN, or whatever.

You have to thinking about BREN, as about the family of assault rifles with same fire mechanism, control buttons, core and body - from super-short carbine (8" barrel, butt-stock "MP5 style" and calibre 5,56x45 to DMR with heavy and long barrel and calibre 7,62x51). If you want 7,62x51, you get it.

Mr. Sanda, head of project, very clearly said in czech article: "CZ BREN is very thoughtful platform of the family of the multi-caliber assault rifle in three calibres 5,56×45 NATO / 7,62×39 / 7,62×51."

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:

"CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."

English (Google Translate):

CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html

 

[Path-Finder]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I just checked with the main guy who is also present on forum. He has clearly stated that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in one and has won that and that is CZ BREN 807 7.62 x 39 version. It's not part of that tender in which SCAR is participating.

your whole reasoning is based on a personal wish for SCAR to win and nothing more! no bubble has been busted other than the likelihood that SCAR's chances are getting slimmer to size 0!!

 

[Zarvan]

your whole reasoning is based on a personal wish for SCAR to win and nothing more! no bubble has been busted other than the likelihood that SCAR's chances are getting slimmer to size 0!!

Mr BREN is not participating in 7.62 X 51 category I am telling you. For 7.62 X 51 two rifles were shortlisted and those are Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H. This is not my personal choice I asked the guy about the trials and he has clearly told that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in 7.62 x 39 not in 7.62 X 51. So believe what you want to believe but BREN is only replacing Type 56 not G3.

This article (link - thanks @JohnEurope) says that there are 7.62x51 mm BREN 2s with 14" and 16" barrels:

"CZ BREN 2 v "sovětské ráži" má stejně dlouhé hlavně, mimo nejkratší, ta začíná na délce 9". Existuje také verze CZ BREN 2 pro náboj 7,62×51 NATO s 14" a 16“ hlavní."

English (Google Translate):

CZ BREN 2 in the "Soviet caliber" has the same length barrel, off short, it starts on the length of 9 ". There is also a version of the CZ BREN 2 charge for 7.62 × 51 NATO with 14" and 16 "barrel.

http://www.armadninoviny.cz/utocna-puska-cz-bren-2-novy-pristup-nove-mysleni.html

According to most credible source who is also present at forum here. BREN isn't participating in 7.62 x 51 tender. In this tender Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are shortlisted and soon one would be declared winner.

 

[Path-Finder]

Mr BREN is not participating in 7.62 X 51 category I am telling you. For 7.62 X 51 two rifles were shortlisted and those are Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H. This is not my personal choice I asked the guy about the trials and he has clearly told that there are two tenders BREN was participating only in 7.62 x 39 not in 7.62 X 51. So believe what you want to believe but BREN is only replacing Type 56 not G3.


According to most credible source who is also present at forum here. BREN isn't participating in 7.62 x 51 tender. In this tender Berreta ARX 200 and SCAR H are shortlisted and soon one would be declared winner.

things can change and nothing is set in stone!! lets not be narrow minded about things Mr SCAR!! the whole point is to find the best solution and if they don't get one from the current trials the trials can happen again with other candidates! unless you your sources feed you that these trials are it!!! as for BREN it is a possibility if they unveil a x51 as well! open mindedness is needed to these things!!

 

[Zarvan]

things can change and nothing is set in stone!! lets not be narrow minded about things Mr SCAR!! the whole point is to find the best solution and if they don't get one from the current trials the trials can happen again with other candidates! unless you your sources feed you that these trials are it!!! as for BREN it is a possibility if they unveil a x51 as well! open mindedness is needed to these things!!

Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.

 

[Path-Finder]

Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.

Hazrat let's be patient and open minded to possibilities that are not made public. I respectfully urge calm and openness! unless you can tell us that how long they will take to announce the winner!!!

 

[50cent]

Bhai trials are over. We are not going to do any new trials. For both tenders rifles are tested and now short listed and talks are on. For 7.62 x 39 deal is done with BREN and for 7.62 x 51 talks are on and we would soon hear about the winner. Either Berreta or SCAR H will come.

Scar maybe for special forces only with limited numbers because they are too expensive