Pakistan's role remarkable in reducing violence: Indian Kashmir CM

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just try to answer 2 questions:

1. Why did Pakistan officially declare that Kasab was not a Pakistani?
2. Why the frantic cover-up at Faridkot?

The first question has already been answered, and there was no cover up in Faridkot.

Problem being that it was not clear then, nor is it clear now, who is in charge. But if there is an interlocuter who is authorized by all stake-holders, then talks can proceed after minimum conditions vis-a-vis terrorism are satisfied.

The interlocutor will always be with the government in power - just like regardless of how weak coalition governments in India are, dialog has continued through that government.

At the end of the day, technicalities on any proposal are handled by the bureaucrats in various ministries, with the political leadership mainly providing overall guidelines. The backchannel discussions should have continued through and post elections given the willingness of the Pakistani side to continue and an agreement by all major stakeholders on the need to 'normalize'.

As I mentioned, discussions can restart after charges are filed against the LeT brass, and action taken against terrorist activities such as those that are going on at Masood Azhar's brother's estate.

Most of the investigation and the evidence gathering has to be done in Pakistan. Pakistan has to gather the evidence and then prosecute. Or otherwise Pakistan could let FBI, CBI or Scotland Yard investigate in Pakistan.

The first paragraph of yours is a different issue than your allegation I responded to - to put it even more clearly, India has not punished Kasab yet because it had to go through a lengthy process of gathering evidence and building a case that could be successfully prosecuted in court. Now India has to go through its judicial system to award punishment, and this is in a case that should be 'open and shut' given the amount of direct evidence implicating kasab in the killings.

Pakistan on the other hand has to build a case around the 'behind the scenes' involvement of certain suspects. How does Pakistan even know these people were involved? Because India claims to have intercepts and other testimony from Kasab indicating their culpability. Indian cooperation on this count and in sharing that evidence to prove involvement in the Mumbai attacks is essential then.

On the CBI assisting in investigations, Pakistan has asked for that, India has refused.

Hmm ... I think what is required is sincerity of effort and some level of competence in terms of enforcement. The basic problem is the double game that Pakistan is perceived to be playing. It will help if Pakistan can demonstrate that it truly has turned a new leaf. For example, Bangladesh showed the seriousness of its purpose by hanging Islamic extremists like Bangla Bhai. If Masood Azhar's brother is running a Jihadi academy under the fond gaze of the ISI, which he is, then that is a huge problem. Pakistan has not done anything yet that demonstrates seriousness against terrorists targeting India. One possibility is that Pakistan signs an extradition treaty and actually extradites some LeT people.

Sincerity of effort has been demonstrated by the fact that the insurgency has been all but killed by Pakistan, and that the Mumbai attacks were a unique and isolated incident. Were Pakistan not sincere in controlling these groups, there would have been far more attacks in India by now.

Firstly, demands for action against terrorism is not an excuse. IMHO India is interested in moving ahead, but this is a central ingredient of the peace process.

I called it an 'excuse' in the historical context of India backing out of negotiations on one pretext or another just when they start becoming fruitful. Were it not for that history Indian protestations would be more credible.

That said, I do think that the GoP should prosecute the alleged perpetrators and indicate progress on that count as a CBM.

 

[wtf]

What does Musharraf have to do with this? India is the one that backed out - Steven Coll, who broke the back-channel diplomacy story pointed out that India chose backed out after the judicial crises in Pakistan.

Beyond that see my response to halaku.

I'll call BS on the Stephen Coll story. The India backing out part was NOT something he said - you are reading things that did not happen.
Here is the New Yorker summary (need to register for the full story)
A Reporter at Large: The Back Channel: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

Or from another source
http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2009/back_channel_11191

----------------------
Musharraf and Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India, had encouraged the negotiators to seek what some involved called a “paradigm shift” in relations between the two nations. The agenda included a search for an end to the long fight over Kashmir. The two principal envoys, Tariq Aziz and Satinder Lambah were developing what diplomats refer to as a “non-paper” on Kashmir which could serve as a deniable but detailed basis for a deal. By early 2007, the back-channel talks on Kashmir had become “so advanced that we’d come to semicolons,” recalled Khurshid Kasuri, who was then Pakistan’s foreign minister. Details for a visit to Pakistan by Singh were being discussed. Neither government, however, had done much to prepare its public for a breakthrough. Tells how domestic unrest in Pakistan contributed to the postponement of the summit. Musharraf slipped into a political death spiral and resigned in August of 2008.
...
Describes the Mumbai attacks of last November 26, which were apparently coordinated by the Islamist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba and the concession by Pakistani officials that the attackers appear to have come from their country. India reacted to the attack with relative restraint, though many Indian politicians continue to call for military action.
..........
Pakistan’s government sent a message to India: Manmohan Singh’s visit should be delayed so that Musharraf could regain his political balance. India, too, was facing domestic complications, in the form of regional elections. In New Delhi, the word in national-security circles had been that “any day we’re going to have an agreement on Kashmir,” Gurmeet Kanwal, a retired Indian brigadier, recalled. “But Musharraf lost his constituencies.”

Rather than recovering, the General slipped into a political death spiral.
-------------------------------
Basically Musharraf could not deliver what he promised. Stop blaming India for it.

 

[wtf]

I called it an 'excuse' in the historical context of India backing out of negotiations on one pretext or another just when they start becoming fruitful. Were it not for that history Indian protestations would be more credible.

That said, I do think that the GoP should prosecute the alleged perpetrators and indicate progress on that count as a CBM.

You do understand the reason why India gets all worked up when Pakistan said Kasab was not from Pakistan, right?

One of the first CBM that India asked for was the list of 20. Pakistan has forever denied that the 20 are in Pakistan. Pakistan denied that Dawood Ibrahim lived there, but then later his daughter married the son of Javed Miandad. Inspite of providing details of house addresses in Pakistan, the list of 20 is still on the back table. India was reasonably worried that the Kasab case would end up in something similar. It is a credit to the media in bringing Pak government to do something (Zardari should take some credit for plainspeaking too).

 

[Contrarian]

the best solution to the kashmiri problem is to rename the state of jammu and kashmir to something like 'Azad Kashmir' and omar should be called the Pm...for as it is no non kashmiri can purchase land in kashmir...

No solution acceptable. Our way or the highway. Our way includes giving away *** to Pakistan. But not an inch more.

 

[Contrarian]

Nonetheless, this does debunks the excuse so many Indian posters use here of 'Pakistan cutting down on supporting the insurgency', and also illustrates how essential Pakistan's role has been in bringing about peace in the valley. It also illustrates why Pakistan and its military and intelligence had absolutely no interest or role in the Mumbai attacks, because if that had been the case, then the violence in Kashmir would not have been brought down.

Have we not discussed before. Pakistan did not reduce the insurgency because of its goodwill, but because of international compulsions PRIMARILY after the 9/11. That is because of changed global perceptions coupled with US attitude.

And another MAJOR reason for teh fall in insurgency is the increased border security employed by India, from electric fencing to sensors to other equipments used.

Secondly, as regards to your claim of why Pakistani military or intelligence agencies have no interest in any bombings in India, we have discussed this point before as well. If it were the not the interest of the Pakistani establishment, they would have easily stopped the civilian bombings in Kashmir itself. Dont give the round robin excuses about the terrorist groups being self sufficient. The Kashmiri groups are NOT self sufficient and depend on Pakistani state support for their even their tactical activities let alone the strategic ones.

 

[afriend]

You continue to harp on a media trial. There was no way to conclusively say that the individual in Indian custody was who India said he was unless evidence (DNA, testimony) was provided to establish his identity. Once that information was provided Pakistan confirmed his identity - whats so hard to understand about that?
.

How can you deny the nationality of the existence if you havent done an investigation. It was clear from the high commissioners statement that he knew about kasab and he was denying his linkage to pakistan even after the media expose.!! I believe the idea was to cover up the trail, but pakistan was forced to accept the realty through the media expose in your country as well as the evidence given to them by india and huge international preassure.

 

[Halaku Khan]

and there was no cover up in Faridkot.

Sigh ... There are dozens of news reporters from dozens of publications around the world who will say that that is a brazen lie. That is why Pakistani credibility is now so low. India knew it all along, but now the rest of the world is also forced to admit it.

India would like to work for peace but Pakistan definitely doesn't make it easy.

 

[dabong1]

Jihad is he only way.......send the freedon fighters over......if we cant have kashmir why should we give to the indians on a plate.

Make hafiz saeed a minister in the govt.

JIHAD IN KASHMIR IS THE ONLY WAY........destroy india and be free.


I have been saying from day one do not give a inch to these indians

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

There come the jehadists out of the woodwork. Take your disgusting ideology to another planet. We don't need it here.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

The 'murderer' being the nation occupying a people and their territory in blatant violation of UNSC resolutions and its own commitments.

Lets not start the same arguments again in an attempt to take the moral high ground.

I don't give a hat about moral high ground.

Its useless to thank Pakistan for killing less people. Pakistan should be apologizing to the UN and the civilized world for breeding the worst ideology on planet earth since revolutionary communism and Nazism.

 

[Jako]

Jihad is he only way.......send the freedon fighters over......if we cant have kashmir why should we give to the indians on a plate.

Make hafiz saeed a minister in the govt.

JIHAD IN KASHMIR IS THE ONLY WAY........destroy india and be free.


I have been saying from day one do not give a inch to these indians

yes ,so much for your dear kashmiris!!! On one hand you say we want no blood on the valley and IA is the oppressor....on the other hand you send the cause of the blood shed of many innocent kashmiris who are taken hostage or killed by the jihadist as a last resort to save their arse from the IA......WHAT DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!......kashmirioko itna pyar shaeh nahi jata, yar......

 

[Zob]

I don't give a hat about moral high ground.

Its useless to thank Pakistan for killing less people. Pakistan should be apologizing to the UN and the civilized world for breeding the worst ideology on planet earth since revolutionary communism and Nazism.

i suggest you go read what HILLARY said....US amde these boyz and even depicted them as heroes in movies(RAMBO) in the 80s....so before pakistan apologizes let us make the US apologize!!!

 

[haawk]

i suggest you go read what HILLARY said....US amde these boyz and even depicted them as heroes in movies(RAMBO) in the 80s....so before pakistan apologizes let us make the US apologize!!!

so you are a guy who goes by movies.....

there a are a lot of movies where terrorists are depicted to be pakistani 's ..... should we go by that?

now i have to appreciate you for accepting that pakistan is responsible for blood shed in kashmir....... and you dont have to appologise , just stop sending terrorists further!!! coz your appologies are not going to bring back the precious lives that has been lost so far!!!!

 

[IceCold]

No solution acceptable. Our way or the highway. Our way includes giving away *** to Pakistan. But not an inch more.

I think we'll prefer the highway over your way. No government no matter how weak or US puppet it may be will accept India's way. Accepting that means Pakistan was bull shiting all along and Kashmir always belonged to India although UN resolutions say other wise. That ant gonna happen and that is why i always say CBMs is a waste of time. Kashmir won't be settled through dialouge even after 60 more years.

 

[IceCold]

I don't give a hat about moral high ground.

Its useless to thank Pakistan for killing less people. Pakistan should be apologizing to the UN and the civilized world for breeding the worst ideology on planet earth since revolutionary communism and Nazism.

How about shoving that sorry up the civilized world's ***, US being at the top.