Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[GumNaam]

I like the modernization drive, laykin paisay kahan se arahay hein?

don't worry about the paisay. tum aam khao yar, pairh na gino. paisay hain, bohat hain. aqal mand ko ishara kaafi ho ta hay.

 

[dBSPL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1490218509472702467

• ( 2019-2025 ) 4 PN MILGEM/Babur Class 3000 ton displacement corvettes (light frigates)
• ( 2025-2030? ) 6 PN J-Class +5000 tons displacement? multi-role frigate

Two countries that benefited from the experience of the MILGEM project to the maximum. All technical details aside, we now have another power multiplier on hand: This will enable the Pakistan and Turkish navies to reach mostly common standards. Common standards will facilitate joint training and drills, and will deepen the unity of power between the two navies.

May be in 10-11 years, the Pakistan navy will modernized its navy with Babur and Jinnah class frigates and acquire new capabilities, while at the same time it will be capable of designing and producing platforms that are completely unique and according to its own needs. This will enable Pakistan's navy to be among the world's deterrent naval forces as of the 2030s, together with Turkish navy. Maybe not the biggest platform, maybe not the one with the highest firepower, but the Jinnah class will have a different and special place in terms of the domestic industrial capabilities it will bring to the Pakistan navy.

Jinnah class guided missile frigate has entered detailed design phase, after completion of conceptual design phase

Pakistan's Jinnah-class frigate under ASFAT leadership in detail design Author: Ahmet Alemdar 06 Feb 2022 09:31 Category: Navy and Naval Systems, News A A FacebookTwitterLinkedinWhatsappTelegramQR Code Jinnah Class Frigate design process has been started to the detail design stage The...

defence.pk

Pakistan's Jinnah-class frigate under ASFAT leadership in detail design​

06 Feb 2022 09:31

Category: Navy and Naval Systems, News
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Jinnah Class Frigate design process has been started to the detail design stage
The Pakistani Navy's design activities for the future frigate class Jinnah are underway. Under the leadership of ASFAT, the main contractor of PN MILGEM, design activities continue in Pakistan. The design activities in question are within the scope of the Offseti of the PN MILGEM project, the statement said. "The Jinnah Class Frigate (JCF) design, the Offset project of the PN MILGEM (Pakistan Milgem) project, continues with the Pakistan Navy Design Office – PDW (Pakistan Design Wing) under the leadership of ASFAT," the statement said. I was told. In addition, it was stated that the detail design process was started, "Offset project; the concept has completed the design phase and the detail is in the design stage." I was told.

Pakistan isterilerine göre özelleştirilerek Türk tersanelerinden 4 adet inşası talep edilen PN Milgem gemilerinin hepsinin inşa süreçleri devam ediyor. ASFAT Deniz Platformları Teknik Müdürü PN Milgem projesinin gemileri hakkında son gelişmelerden aktardı. Birinci PN Milgem gemisi olan PNS BABUR 11 Ocak 2022’de İstanbul Tersanesi Komutanlığı’nda havuza girdi, planlı ve uzun bir havuz süreci sonrası liman testlerine başlayacak. Üçüncü PN Milgem gemisi olan PNS BADR’ın inşası ise tüm hızıyla Karaçi’de devam ediyor. 2022’nin ilk yarısında geminin Karaçi’de denize iniş için çalışmalar devam ediyor. İkinci ve dördüncü PN Milgem gemileri PNS KHAIBAR ve PNS TARIQ’ın da inşası devam ediyor.

PN Babur

PN MILGEM Project:​

The Milgem project, designed and developed with domestic and national facilities for the Turkish navy, paid off and ordered these ships for its own navy in Pakistan. In the Milgems ordered by Pakistan, changes were made to the ship design according to the requirements of the Pakistani navy and the PN Milgem project was created.
PN Milgemler also has 2 6-cell surface-to-air guided shell systems, It was announced that systems such as 2 3-launch guided shell systems, 76 mm Main Battery Gun, Torpedo Launch System, Close Air Defense System, 2 25 mm Remote Controlled Stabilized Gun System (STOP), Carinaya Mounted Sonar, Torpedo Mixing / Deception System (TKAS) will be installed.
Ships to be produced within the scope of PN MILGEM project:

• PNS Mughal
• PNS Khaibar
• PNS Badr
• PNS Tariq

will.

Relatedly

Ahmet Alemdar
Defence Turk Broadcast Coordinator. In the case of Turkish Defense Industry; defense technologies, strategies and policy researcher and follower.

Tags: ASFATJCFJinnah Class FrigateMilgemPakistanpakistani milgemiPN MILGEM

ASFAT liderliğinde Pakistan'ın Jinnah sınıfı fırkateyni detay dizayn aşamasında

Pakistan Donanmasının gelecekteki fırkateyn sınıfı Jinnah için dizayn faaliyetleri devam ediyor.

www.defenceturk.net

https://twitter.com/x/status/1490218509472702467

 

[imranyounus]

5000 T is a good sized ship probably will be sufficient for PN. But look at the pictures and weapons layout it looks mostly around 3000 3500.

 

[Basel]

We dont know may be jinnah class may have combinations of western and Chinese tech, best of both can be integrated

Jinnah class may be able to get weapons and systems from Turkey as they are developing all required equipment for ships, also we are buying CAMM-ER NG so we might be able to get those for MRSAM role or possibly Aster-30 (latest block) or similar system for LRSAM both of those are smaller and more compact then current Chinese systems.

 

[Path-Finder]

Hazrat Derwaish Muffakar @Zarvan

 

[Falconless]

If we look at PN's past ventures, I can assume the project will be much more costlier then original estimates and much more costlier then chinese warships. As far as new SAMs are concerned, we already are getting it through Baburs. However, all relevant individuals make tons of money in such in-house projects.

I think PN will only make 1 Jinnah class frigate saying this because of past track record of PN:-

So we paid 2x the cost for Agosta subs only for ToT and rights to produce & even sell submarines for other countries. We only made 1 sub in Karachi in which French were here to help make it.

Same thing happened with F22P. Despite ToT & urgent need of more warships PN was never able to make more.

However, Jinnah is not just a ToT. Its making the whole design, manufacturing from scratch.

Ship building takes lot of time, lot of funds, approval times etc.. In that whole scenario, the trained staff on manufacturing a certain technology, the ones who get certified, studied advance courses in foreign institutes with nations money already gets retire and moved on. So by time, navy losses its capacity to produce advance ships. Just imagine ToT for agosta subs, ToT for F22Ps, even then PN needed ToT and full cooperation of china for just a 500 ton ship like Azmat FACs.. Still taking ages to deliver the last one. For 2 years unable to arm the OPVs.

PN maybe a great professional fighting force, but its ability to manufacture and absorb the technical details, make it part of their processes and pass it on to next generations is extremely questionable.

However, Jinnah can be successful if PN creates a sustainable eco-system, an environment capable of producing innovations, inclusion of private sector & other depts talent in the eco-system. You really need to gel the commercial talent wherever necessary and above all your existing talent pool must have solid mechanism through which can pass on the knowledge & expertise further on.

BTW, You will build ships whenever you do, atleast build more Naval bases first. Till now most of navy assets are stacked together in karachi. A single point of target for enemy. When we look at PAF, when we look at its airbases, you get the feeling that this force is ready for all eventualities and is prepared to taken on to adversary. This is simply not true for Navy. PN appears to be very easy going and not anticipating worst case scenarios.

You make it sound like the Karachi Shipyaed should be spun off into a defence company of the likes of HiT and PAC.

 

[Incog_nito]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1490218509472702467

• ( 2019-2025 ) 4 PN MILGEM/Babur Class 3000 ton displacement corvettes (light frigates)
• ( 2025-2030? ) 6 PN J-Class +5000 tons displacement? multi-role frigate

Two countries that benefited from the experience of the MILGEM project to the maximum. All technical details aside, we now have another power multiplier on hand: This will enable the Pakistan and Turkish navies to reach mostly common standards. Common standards will facilitate joint training and drills, and will deepen the unity of power between the two navies.

May be in 10-11 years, the Pakistan navy will modernized its navy with Babur and Jinnah class frigates and acquire new capabilities, while at the same time it will be capable of designing and producing platforms that are completely unique and according to its own needs. This will enable Pakistan's navy to be among the world's deterrent naval forces as of the 2030s, together with Turkish navy. Maybe not the biggest platform, maybe not the one with the highest firepower, but the Jinnah class will have a different and special place in terms of the domestic industrial capabilities it will bring to the Pakistan navy.

Jinnah class guided missile frigate has entered detailed design phase, after completion of conceptual design phase

Pakistan's Jinnah-class frigate under ASFAT leadership in detail design Author: Ahmet Alemdar 06 Feb 2022 09:31 Category: Navy and Naval Systems, News A A FacebookTwitterLinkedinWhatsappTelegramQR Code Jinnah Class Frigate design process has been started to the detail design stage The...

defence.pk

You seem to be right. As PN might not induct any lightweight frigates at all, only 4000+ Tonnage ones.

 

[dBSPL]

5000 T is a good sized ship probably will be sufficient for PN. But look at the pictures and weapons layout it looks mostly around 3000 3500.

When I enlarged the photo, I realized that my estimate of 5000t displacement was exaggerated. But: although it is a preliminary design, the scale model tells that the ship's LOA between 125-130 meters. And although there is no detailed showing, it is understood that there will be a possibly AESA/PESA multi-functional radar suite on the main mast with navigation radars, ESM/ECM, IFF. (The rear mast will likely have an air control radar for helis along with communication antennas) It seems to be a suitable heli deck for heavy class helicopters, but there is probably only one hangar entry. Main gun is 76 mm(SR?) and 8 SLCM canister are shown in typical configuration.

The possible navionic suites, weapon load and silhouette of the ship reminded me of the Italian FREMM/Bergamini asw frigates for some reason. Also Fritjof Nansen class is another frigate of similar configuration. Bergamini is around 140 meters platform, and have full displacement around 7000 tons if I am not mistaken. The Jinnah class' model, on the other hand, is in the 125-130 meter range, and I think it will definitely have a displacement of around 4000 tons, even not 5000 tons of displacement. (If we make a connection between these preliminary designs and the PN requirements)

 

[JawadKKhan]

Not saying that you are wrong but recent purchases and deals with TOT have shown that Navy is really interested in in-house solutions.
Actually, Nowadays tri service personnels seem to be interested in house developments.
Like PAF with its project azm
Navy with its Jinnah class,mini submarine and Hangor class submarine projects
Army with its 155m Artillery gun,AK 2 , partial TOT for VT 4,ToT SH 15 Howitzer SP,G MLRS,BW 20&21 rifle programs.
We have never seen such level of indiginization afforts in our whole military history.
Even @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has said that Navy's Jinnah class frigate project is real effort for in house shipbuilding capacity.

Two points here. PN did not make more 090Bs due to lack of money and the french wanting to sell us The Barracuda instead stating they had stopped manufacturing 090Bs. On the 0H53 PNhas not been entirely happy and the design has a lot of limitations as has become apparent now. PN is already looking at an upgrade. Building more while you find limitations with the platform is not a good idea in my humble opinion.
I think PN has progressively built up capability empowering it to make a ship locally now. It has the right partner, and although I am not certain some capabilities are being built in house as well.
Finally please also look at the people at the helm of affirs during the last 1.5decades. They are too busy looting the country to allow any development to take place.
My2 paisas worth
A

Lot of what you say makes sense, because it is based on historical facts.
But, I'm afraid you missed a very important aspect in your evaluation.

Any nations capacity to absorb knowhow and translate it into an industrial capacity depends on different factors, those include,

*The quality of TOT, it is easy to say we have TOT, but what did you actually get, the TOT gets lost in the details.
*Your capacity to absorb that TOT, do you have sufficient manpower, and do they have enough experience and confidence to understand and apply what is being transferred.
* Your domestic industrial strength, are you able to transfer your TOT into a functional element, it is not easy. It sounds good we have TOT, nice press coverage etc, ok, but what now.
* Do you have the financial capacity to implement that TOT into your domestic projects. Ok, you have the manpower and industrial strength but without funds, it means nothing. Any TOT is useful at most for a decade, beyond which the requirements are shifted, and what has been acquired becomes redundant to certain degree.
* Do you have a peaceful environment, where the energies of relevant authorities are directed to relevant areas, or are they too busy fire fighting.

The Pakistan of 2000 or even 2012 was a different creature, with regards to all of the factors mentioned above. Pakistan has changed, just because such efforts delivered limited results previously, does not mean similar efforts won't deliver again.
And please recognise those efforts were not at the same intensity as now, the quality of TOT to which we have access now is far better with much better support, combine that with better domestic capacities and more peaceful environment, where the leadership is hell-bent on geo-economics, these efforts make a lot of sense, and should be commended to the extreme.

Fair enough, Good & valid points.

My views were built around the past history plus whats happening right now. The only major concern is what I feel is perhaps PN's ability to absorb the technical knowledge and make it part of the processes within its ship building, I could be wrong but I have not heard any steps taken in this regard. Perhaps its all secretive or maybe i am simply unaware. For-example, in PAF case, We actually see steps on ground in this direction. Like aviation city, like center for A.I, successful existing running programs like JF from which valuable experience can be taken (unlike Navy as its old programs never saw the daylight ). Navy needs the kind of eco-system in form of various institutes, technology & engineering companies being tasked or dedicated for specific equipment etc. Plus the environment of innovation and R & D, so navy won't really require help of others everytime, I am sure there are lot of navies which are having successful ship building capabilities but never needed foreign help at every step, because the eco-system, the partnership of commercial industries with defense sector and sustainable HR (training & institutes) all collaborate. Once this all starts to happen then we'll be certain that yes the program is getting mature with a solid base. Otherwise, i see 1 ship and end of line.
Many would disagree but I have my own views, I would rather wanted Navy to build 1500 ton corvette in-house with its own innovation & experiences. Ofcourse it would have utilized all the experience it gained from F-22P or FACs manufacturing. The critical components could have been imported. But the kind of confidence & foundation it could have laid down for future improved & bigger ships. The indians, the turks, everyone started at some point. Nevertheless, we decided to start with frigate, lets hope it establish the self sufficiency & confidence that we don't have to contact foreign countries after the first ship for next upgraded and bigger version.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Fair enough, Good & valid points.

My views were built around the past history plus whats happening right now. The only major concern is what I feel is perhaps PN's ability to absorb the technical knowledge and make it part of the processes within its ship building, I could be wrong but I have not heard any steps taken in this regard. Perhaps its all secretive or maybe i am simply unaware. For-example, in PAF case, We actually see steps on ground in this direction. Like aviation city, like center for A.I, successful existing running programs like JF from which valuable experience can be taken (unlike Navy as its old programs never saw the daylight ). Navy needs the kind of eco-system in form of various institutes, technology & engineering companies being tasked or dedicated for specific equipment etc. Plus the environment of innovation and R & D, so navy won't really require help of others everytime, I am sure there are lot of navies which are having successful ship building capabilities but never needed foreign help at every step, because the eco-system, the partnership of commercial industries with defense sector and sustainable HR (training & institutes) all collaborate. Once this all starts to happen then we'll be certain that yes the program is getting mature with a solid base. Otherwise, i see 1 ship and end of line.
Many would disagree but I have my own views, I would rather wanted Navy to build 1500 ton corvette in-house with its own innovation & experiences. Ofcourse it would have utilized all the experience it gained from F-22P or FACs manufacturing. The critical components could have been imported. But the kind of confidence & foundation it could have laid down for future improved & bigger ships. The indians, the turks, everyone started at some point. Nevertheless, we decided to start with frigate, lets hope it establish the self sufficiency & confidence that we don't have to contact foreign countries after the first ship for next upgraded and bigger version.

Navy first built one FAC on its own without chinese support.
Mini submarine project was also carried out.
Now Hangor class submarine project is also carried out with ToT.
Milgem class Corvette with IP rights.
Navy also grew NRDI for its research also.

Still you have doubt about their seriousness in indiginization of weapons?

 

[JawadKKhan]

Now Hangor class submarine project is also carried out with ToT.
Milgem class Corvette with IP rights.

Anyone should have 100% doubts after reading this history you wrote.
What indigenization lol ?
If past programs would have had success we won't be needing Hangors with ToT again.
We already have gone passed through this 2 decades ago. Agosta with ToT, now Hangar with ToT ??

I mean if Navy has to go back to square one and ALWAYS need ToT then that means indigenization is not working. That means you are losing money for ToT programs and not implementing & benefiting anything from it. We paid twice amount for ToT & Rights for production of those subs, still never made more. Should have built more and improved them overtime with further advanced equipment (heck we even could upgrade em on own, needed Turks for it and you are claiming "indigenization" :0 ).

indigenization is only useful if you are benefiting from it. It does not mean to show a list of projects you did with extensive help of others and NEVER able to produce unit on your own. So, MUCH better approach would be just get off-the shelf ships then this so-called indigenization. That saves money, time and gives you quality.. example: Type-54As.

 

[araz]

Fair enough, Good & valid points.

My views were built around the past history plus whats happening right now. The only major concern is what I feel is perhaps PN's ability to absorb the technical knowledge and make it part of the processes within its ship building, I could be wrong but I have not heard any steps taken in this regard. Perhaps its all secretive or maybe i am simply unaware. For-example, in PAF case, We actually see steps on ground in this direction. Like aviation city, like center for A.I, successful existing running programs like JF from which valuable experience can be taken (unlike Navy as its old programs never saw the daylight ). Navy needs the kind of eco-system in form of various institutes, technology & engineering companies being tasked or dedicated for specific equipment etc. Plus the environment of innovation and R & D, so navy won't really require help of others everytime, I am sure there are lot of navies which are having successful ship building capabilities but never needed foreign help at every step, because the eco-system, the partnership of commercial industries with defense sector and sustainable HR (training & institutes) all collaborate. Once this all starts to happen then we'll be certain that yes the program is getting mature with a solid base. Otherwise, i see 1 ship and end of line.
Many would disagree but I have my own views, I would rather wanted Navy to build 1500 ton corvette in-house with its own innovation & experiences. Ofcourse it would have utilized all the experience it gained from F-22P or FACs manufacturing. The critical components could have been imported. But the kind of confidence & foundation it could have laid down for future improved & bigger ships. The indians, the turks, everyone started at some point. Nevertheless, we decided to start with frigate, lets hope it establish the self sufficiency & confidence that we don't have to contact foreign countries after the first ship for next upgraded and bigger version.

I think there have been a lot of gaps in PN knowledge base over the years. They tried fitting weapons on the type 21 and encountered fracturing of the surface and could not do so.
With the Agostas it is wrong to say they did not get anything from the TOT. A lot of CAD software and its useage along with under water welding skills came to PN along with that. The CAD designing software has come in handy with the JFT designing.
I think 053s wer always going to be stop gaps but PN remained unhappy about its build quality and safety features. There were smatterings of modification to sort out basic issues of safety on the platform. Furthermore the Chinese themselves were in the process of a huge build up of naval ca0acity so more modern platforms were not available to the PN. There wer issues with maturation of projects before PN stepped in with an order. It is/a testament to Chinese growth that we have placed a huge order with them for frigates and subs.
Along the lines the shipyard has been upgraded and capacity has been biilt for medium to large build up. We upgraded one of the Chinese Corvettes which was our first design project.
With the Milgem we have really acquired the help and partnership which we have needed all-along and the new Frigates and the Milgem is very much in line with our requirements and the supplier's ability/agreement to provide the necessary help and modifications and involve the PN design team in the process.
I suspect there is a lot more to learn in sea going platforms than aircrafts. Inherently larger, smaller in numbers and in many ways a different level of complexity, financially more exacting and honorous, and lack of ancillary steel industry had meant our progress has been slow. With the newer locally built frigates we will take matters in our own hand and learn for the first time what it is like to modify platforms and what one modification means to design and stability of platform. The 053 modifications when they do come about would be another cog in this progression. Just yesterday, there was news of Chinese willingness to set up a steel plant as A part of CPEC. Ican only hope we will eventually be able to acquire ship grade steel locally . It has not happened but has been a journey lasting 30 years. If one looks back one has to thank the US for taking its Brooks and Garcia frigates back which has made us realize how important it has been to stand on our own feet. The partnership with the Chinese has been helpful but not as beneficial as the partnership with the Turks primarily because the Turks are at the same level of learning as we are in many ways. Unlike the Chinese they do not have the economy of scale to go solo so allying with Pakistan makes sense to them for a longer term. I hope and pray we have a longer and more wider partnership with the Turks and establish our respective industries on a c9llaborative basis for mutual benefit.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

With our level of industrialization, the most we'll be able to do is original ship design and manufacturing via imported inputs (such as steel, engines, etc). The reason why the Agosta 90B ToT didn't take off was because we needed to buy the steel, engines, etc from the OEM, i.e. DCNS. That's the cost of not growing our own indigenous industrial base.

The ToT from the MILGEM/J-Class was entirely about learning design. Instead of strictly relying on the OEM for inputs, we can choose our own (e.g., from South Korea, Japan, Poland, UK, etc) and therefore have more control over the cost. However, we're still relying on foreign suppliers, just with a little more flexibility.

It's not ideal, but the hope is that if we design more original ships and build them locally, that can spur the private sector to invest in developing some of those inputs. After all, the private sector could profit more by producing locally in some cases than importing.

It's how the likes of Japan, China and South Korea advanced their industries. If the private sector grows, so does our employment, the value of our exports, and our tax revenue base -- all of which can combine to a bigger defence budget to finance new programs (both local and imported).

This is why we need to think the long game instead of constantly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I get the appeal of more Type 054As (or even Type 054Bs), but that's not going to advance our industry or our economy.

If you don't grow the industry, then our ability to finance next-generation arms shrinks even further. Don't assume we're stacking all these weapon orders for free, these programs are all coming at a high cost, e.g., foreign currency expenditure, debt, opportunity cost from other programs, etc.

It's very sad to see us Pakistanis clamor for imports when the domestic program isn't to their personal liking. Guys, if we don't take this step today, then we'll go from the fiscal ability to import 4 frigates to 1 frigate. Why? Because we didn't invest in the areas that drive more valuable exports, expand our tax revenue base, help us eliminate debt, etc.

We are not an oil or gas-producing nation where we can easily replenish our hard currency stocks from the earth. We fund programs either through debt or through production. If we keep ignoring production, we're going to fall into more debt, and that will cripple our long-term defence capabilities.

 

[Scorpiooo]

With our level of industrialization, the most we'll be able to do is original ship design and manufacturing via imported inputs (such as steel, engines, etc). The reason why the Agosta 90B ToT didn't take off was because we needed to buy the steel, engines, etc from the OEM, i.e. DCNS. That's the cost of not growing our own indigenous industrial base.

The ToT from the MILGEM/J-Class was entirely about learning design. Instead of strictly relying on the OEM for inputs, we can choose our own (e.g., from South Korea, Japan, Poland, UK, etc) and therefore have more control over the cost. However, we're still relying on foreign suppliers, just with a little more flexibility.

It's not ideal, but the hope is that if we design more original ships and build them locally, that can spur the private sector to invest in developing some of those inputs. After all, the private sector could profit more by producing locally in some cases than importing.

It's how the likes of Japan, China and South Korea advanced their industries. If the private sector grows, so does our employment, the value of our exports, and our tax revenue base -- all of which can combine to a bigger defence budget to finance new programs (both local and imported).

This is why we need to think the long game instead of constantly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I get the appeal of more Type 054As (or even Type 054Bs), but that's not going to advance our industry or our economy.

If you don't grow the industry, then our ability to finance next-generation arms shrinks even further. Don't assume we're stacking all these weapon orders for free, these programs are all coming at a high cost, e.g., foreign currency expenditure, debt, opportunity cost from other programs, etc.

It's very sad to see us Pakistanis clamor for imports when the domestic program isn't to their personal liking. Guys, if we don't take this step today, then we'll go from the fiscal ability to import 4 frigates to 1 frigate. Why? Because we didn't invest in the areas that drive more valuable exports, expand our tax revenue base, help us eliminate debt, etc.

We are not an oil or gas-producing nation where we can easily replenish our hard currency stocks from the earth. We fund programs either through debt or through production. If we keep ignoring production, we're going to fall into more debt, and that will cripple our long-term defence capabilities.

We have become independent as much as we can, even its take one or 2 decades more, its never to late

Right now something is better then non

 

[JawadKKhan]

It's not ideal, but the hope is that if we design more original ships and build them locally, that can spur the private sector to invest in developing some of those inputs. After all, the private sector could profit more by producing locally in some cases than importing.

Yep agree. For result oriented ship building capability that can sustain & modernize this above point is extremely important. We need to gel commercial sector with defense industry. Navy needs to give tenders for small or even bigger whatever components from local industry. Also I believe we are not even using our existing defense organisation with full capacity or collaboration. The whole chain of SPD departments have all sort of machinery in them. Overall we may have better potential but we lack proper management of available resources.