Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

The latest test confirms the BrahMos range of 700 km. But I don't think SSM version of BrahMos will be on P-15 A/B or in P-17A (right now she might have 300 km BrahMos SSM).

The role of these ships is entirely different than what you trying to portray. while NGMV fits that role what you are saying. And btw, in terms of capability, NGMV is every sense be a light frigate.

Why are they saying next generation with everything?
Next generation missile vessel
Next generation destroyer
Next generation..........
Next generation..........

 

[Farhan Bohra]

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I was talking to an Indian guy on twitter. Can you confirm how much of these things he is saying is true ?

Why are they saying next generation with everything?
Next generation missile vessel
Next generation destroyer
Next generation..........
Next generation..........

The BrahMos TESTED range in most likelihood is 700 km, as the NOTAM was around 800 km for the test. And we always going to see 2 VLS systems in Indian navy ships, one for AShM/SSM other for AAD. Now even US and Europe shifting toward such arrangements, I don't think we going to drop this.
NGF be most likely P-17 B, instead of a totally new design.

Coming to NGD, NGD be totally new design and in likelyhood an AAD Destroyer (with BMD capabilities) unlike MULTIROLE destroyer like P-15 A/B,,, with new radar ( getting tested on INS Avnesh), XR-SAM, IEP, MT-30, DEW for CIWS etc.

This is what MDL Director had said about NGD

For NGMV, the L1 is already decided, that is CSL. The contract might happen this year.
NGC in most likeihood be dedicated ASW ship.

 

[Zarvan]

The OFFICIAL range of the Brahmos was 300 kms (accurately, I think about 290 kms), to stay within the range defined by the Missile Technology Control regulations, but it was an open secret that it was capable of almost double that range, given the original range of the Russian cruise missile on which it was closely modelled. I have not looked it up in any official publication, but I believe that it is commonly estimated at 700 kms nowadays.

In reality, it can go even further, according to information from 'usually reliable sources'. You will understand my delicacy in not putting a figure to that speculative input.

Thank you Sir

 

[Tipu7]

The BrahMos TESTED range in most likelihood is 700 km, as the NOTAM was around 800 km for the test.

So the NATCOM decides the range of weapon?

And we always going to see 2 VLS systems in Indian navy ships, one for AShM/SSM other for AAD. Now even US and Europe shifting toward such arrangements

Ummmmm, what? Opting two entirely different VLS design for different munitions within a single vessel is a downside, not plus side.
Hypersonics are going to bring some change in VLS configuration, but what you are suggesting is dubious.

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I was talking to an Indian guy on twitter. Can you confirm how much of these things he is saying is true ?

NGD: Far in future
NGD: Far in future
NGC: RFI issued first time in 2016, no progress made ever since.
NGMV: Under progress
NGOPV: In future
NGFAC: In future

(In future= Decade,
Far in future= decade plus)

 

[Farhan Bohra]

So the NATCOM decides the range of weapon?

No, but might be you can?

Ummmmm, what? Opting two entirely different VLS design for different munitions within a single vessel is a downside, not plus side.
Hypersonics are going to bring some change in VLS configuration, but what you are suggesting is dubious.

Not worth to reply, might be you should check new designs coming out from Europe and US.

 

[Tipu7]

The OFFICIAL range of the Brahmos was 300 kms (accurately, I think about 290 kms), to stay within the range defined by the Missile Technology Control regulations, but it was an open secret that it was capable of almost double that range, given the original range of the Russian cruise missile on which it was closely modelled. I have not looked it up in any official publication, but I believe that it is commonly estimated at 700 kms nowadays.

In reality, it can go even further, according to information from 'usually reliable sources'. You will understand my delicacy in not putting a figure to that speculative input.

What type of controls are applied to ensure that a certain export grade weapon is compatible with MTCR?

 

[Joe Shearer]

What type of controls are applied to ensure that a certain export grade weapon is compatible with MTCR?

I am not sure. I know only that Russia was a signatory, or a succeeding signatory, to this convention, and complied with it during the joint venture development of the new weapon.

That is to say, offhand I cannot tell you, but after a little digging around, I might be able to find out.

A lot happens and my ten days in country and catching up have been happy updates. We are fully indigenous in sims now and moving to AR based simulation for platforms left and right.
The issue lies in selecting the right private sector engineering firms and coordinating it with the state R&D firms.

I was reading this thread and feel wounded. I have a bone to pick with you.

 

[SQ8]

I am not sure. I know only that Russia was a signatory, or a succeeding signatory, to this convention, and complied with it during the joint venture development of the new weapon.

That is to say, offhand I cannot tell you, but after a little digging around, I might be able to find out.


I was reading this thread and feel wounded. I have a bone to pick with you.

On the matter of range I will state this humbly - a 777-200LR can under favorable conditions including weather & payload along with route fly 16000km+
In unfavorable conditions it is stymied to barely 12000km

But insofar as MTCR is concerned it’s grey area is joint and indigenous development. So many of Pakistan’s indigenous designs are simply going over the loop of MTCR with some having minor to major guidance, control and warhead changes.

Now whether Pakistan has the ability using something very very high up to track IR signatures is pretty much a small possibility so the Brahmos has a big advantage of the Horizon. However, an asset that the PAF wasn’t too happy with has turned out to be the PN’s dream in its ability to pick out low flying objects over the seas in pretty much all sea states and weather in ranges approaching those mentioned for the Brahmos. That launch warning allows surface vessels to keep the idea position to bear the right weapons and deploy countermeasures timely to cause even highly effective systems such as the Brahmos issues.

The flip side of it is that INS Hansa has assets that have both active & passive sensors that can pick out C-802s, 801s and DH-10 based systems as well to help IN cross the X00km+ Layered barrier that Pakistan has.
It is not as effective yet but rumor has it that the Airbus(or global 6000) based platform will have the ability to mirror or exceed the Pakistani assets capabilities.

Hopefully its a wishbone you want to pick

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hopefully its a wishbone you want to pick

No, Sir, I was reacting to my lacerated feelings.

When I first joined this forum, there was a discussion going on about how best to build the Pakistan Navy. I had contributed a long-ish piece - it may or may not exist, none of my older posts are traceable - suggesting that as a contender with less resources, as a defender, in other words, it would be best to depend on a triad, a triad of land-based missile and long-range artillery batteries (Pakistan had the 210 mm howitzers, India never possessed that weapon), of small, light patrol-boat sized missile craft, and of a complement of submarines.

Somebody contacted me after that, and asked me searching questions about my work background and I answered, reserving some information for necessary reasons. It was then that I was designated Professional.

I am happy to see the direction that PN growth is taking. I am consoled by the saying,"Ghar ki murghi dal baraabar."

However, an asset that the PAF wasn’t too happy with has turned out to be the PN’s dream in its ability to pick out low flying objects over the seas in pretty much all sea states and weather in ranges approaching those mentioned for the Brahmos. That launch warning allows surface vessels to keep the idea position to bear the right weapons and deploy countermeasures timely to cause even highly effective systems such as the Brahmos issues.

The flip side of it is that INS Hansa has assets that have both active & passive sensors that can pick out C-802s, 801s and DH-10 based systems as well to help IN cross the X00km+ Layered barrier that Pakistan has.
It is not as effective yet but rumor has it that the Airbus(or global 6000) based platform will have the ability to mirror or exceed the Pakistani assets capabilities.

Is nothing sacred?

 

[SQ8]

No, Sir, I was reacting to my lacerated feelings.

When I first joined this forum, there was a discussion going on about how best to build the Pakistan Navy. I had contributed a long-ish piece - it may or may not exist, none of my older posts are traceable - suggesting that as a contender with less resources, as a defender, in other words, it would be best to depend on a triad, a triad of land-based missile and long-range artillery batteries (Pakistan had the 210 mm howitzers, India never possessed that weapon), of small, light patrol-boat sized missile craft, and of a complement of submarines.

Somebody contacted me after that, and asked me searching questions about my work background and I answered, reserving some information for necessary reasons. It was then that I was designated Professional.

I am happy to see the direction that PN growth is taking. I am consoled by the saying,"Ghar ki murghi dal baraabar."


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Is nothing sacred?

Memory is fickle and as so is the norm in the subcontinent it is claimed shamelessly by every other tom, daud and hari to be the first to do something regardless of if they never even said it. The number of plaques inaugurating something have changed names so often the marble has nearly been chiseled away.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Memory is fickle and as so is the norm in the subcontinent it is claimed shamelessly by every other tom, daud and hari to be the first to do something regardless of if they never even said it. The number of plaques inaugurating something have changed names so often the marble has nearly been chiseled away.

I get it.

I probably look like this, as the marble is chipped one blow at a time -