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Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

Considering the purchase price of 054A for Pakistan, the total price of three 054A and supporting helicopters is 750 million US dollars. I don't know how Turkey can lower its costs.

BTW: India's Kolkata class destroyers cost US $4.76 billion, one Kolkata equivalent to nineteen 054A.


052D costs 3.5 billion CNY ($550 million). The cost of 055 is 6 billion CNY (940 million US dollars).
What if the cost of Jinnah class is higher than the quotation of 052D&055?

I don't think the Kolkata class cost $4.76 billion each, that sounds like an aircraft carrier level cost.

Jinnah class won't cost that much more then the Milgem, and certainly not as much as the type 052d or 055. For one, we cannot afford those kind of costs right now, and second Pakistani military is usually fairly good at rationalising cost to capability ratio.
It will likely cost similar to the 054a or perhaps lower depending on how much development is internalised.


Jinnah class isn't just about costs, it's about developing domestic industry, and domestic capability, you can't beat that. And, being a large country, Pakistan cannot forever rely fully on foreign sources for weapons.

With a population of 230 million expected to be 400 million, Pakistan should have capabilities to fulfil it's own needs, it would be ridiculous to rely on imports forever.
 
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Turkish navy frigates will carry MDAS-VLS with 16 cells per platform. This means 16x4=64 maximum medium range air defense missiles. Or 16 missiles on a strategic scale. But there is something that invalidates this traditional approach; navy platforms are now much more integrated and this integration will be much deeper in the future. The presentation below describes the CMS that will be on these ships, but I can tell you that the entire navionic infrastructure and communication systems and scanning, illuminating, detection&identification suites of these platforms have the appropriate architecture for this integration. So, when you engage with this frigate, your only real-time problem is not the frigate itself; There will be other elements in that network that you cannot detect. This other element could be another frigate, an MPA, or even a submarine.

Jinnah class isn't just about costs, it's about developing domestic industry, and domestic capability, you can't beat that. And, being a large country, Pakistan cannot forever rely fully on foreign sources for weapons.

With a population of 230 million expected to be 400 million, Pakistan should have capabilities to fulfil it's own needs, it would be ridiculous to rely on imports forever.

Each navy has specific conditions that differentiate its needs. A ship built for country X may not be able to meet the demands of another country exactly. A navy must first of all have the ability to make this own doctrinal design. When that doesn't happen, you try to adapt a platform that has emerged for different (even if close) needs, whether under license or off-the-shelf, to your needs.

That's why, first of all, what I advocate is Staff intellect and navy tradition. Because when there is this intelligence, it will necessarily push the authorities to develop in its deficient areas. Nothing came into existence just an overnight. We have a long way to go, the important thing is to have a solid strategy in this fight and stick to the plan.

Another issue is to make a comparison with traditional tonnage sizes. If you ask me, what stands out today is point operational capabilities capable of deterring the enemy, rather than massive conventional firepower. Moreover, this is not a new doctrinal approach. When we look at history, seeing only the British empire maritime is a point of view consisting of being myopia.

I think the main approaches that come to the fore in today's maritime are these four:
  • Syatem Design Quality and Subsystems that will make a strategic capability difference
  • Sea Area domination; underwater/surface/air integrated tactical image and joint situational awareness
  • System-of-Systems: Network-based joint operations capability
  • Source management and operational readiness

In short, the Pakistan navy (and Turkish navy) should foresees its demographic and economic conditions as well as industrial develepment, also the conditions of its seas and areas of interest as well as anti-thesis of the elements that have a threat perception; so that it should create own model/way by melting all these into one pot, by reviving its navy tradition.

By its own model, both country should draw the attention of their people to seas and ultimate interests. With its own model, it should reveal the most successful resource management possible and its solutions (platforms) should be born with capabilities(awareness>total firepower) that will meet 100% needs.In this way, our interest in the seas as a nation is conceptualized; we use our resources more efficiently and our capabilities per unit/platform will be higher.
 
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If we look at PN's past ventures, I can assume the project will be much more costlier then original estimates and much more costlier then chinese warships. As far as new SAMs are concerned, we already are getting it through Baburs. However, all relevant individuals make tons of money in such in-house projects.

I think PN will only make 1 Jinnah class frigate saying this because of past track record of PN:-

So we paid 2x the cost for Agosta subs only for ToT and rights to produce & even sell submarines for other countries. We only made 1 sub in Karachi in which French were here to help make it.

Same thing happened with F22P. Despite ToT & urgent need of more warships PN was never able to make more.

However, Jinnah is not just a ToT. Its making the whole design, manufacturing from scratch.

Ship building takes lot of time, lot of funds, approval times etc.. In that whole scenario, the trained staff on manufacturing a certain technology, the ones who get certified, studied advance courses in foreign institutes with nations money already gets retire and moved on. So by time, navy losses its capacity to produce advance ships. Just imagine ToT for agosta subs, ToT for F22Ps, even then PN needed ToT and full cooperation of china for just a 500 ton ship like Azmat FACs.. Still taking ages to deliver the last one. For 2 years unable to arm the OPVs.

PN maybe a great professional fighting force, but its ability to manufacture and absorb the technical details, make it part of their processes and pass it on to next generations is extremely questionable.

However, Jinnah can be successful if PN creates a sustainable eco-system, an environment capable of producing innovations, inclusion of private sector & other depts talent in the eco-system. You really need to gel the commercial talent wherever necessary and above all your existing talent pool must have solid mechanism through which can pass on the knowledge & expertise further on.

BTW, You will build ships whenever you do, atleast build more Naval bases first. Till now most of navy assets are stacked together in karachi. A single point of target for enemy. When we look at PAF, when we look at its airbases, you get the feeling that this force is ready for all eventualities and is prepared to taken on to adversary. This is simply not true for Navy. PN appears to be very easy going and not anticipating worst case scenarios.
 
Get 4 x more Type 054's for F* sake !! No one can match the speed and the quality of Chinese. The Chinese have given an advance warship 054 to PN which has created equilibrium in the indian Ocean.
That is not a good argument for foreign acquisition. Whatever we say local skill development and production will be far superior to buying from outside even if it is China or Turkey. To their credit the Turks are transferring technology rather than getting us to buy their produce. Posters are on record saying the Milgem class of PN is technically better than 054 (I am relying on a crutch here due to lack of knowledge) but the leaning of the PN would support that as well. The fruits of local production will be far too many to let this opportunity go.
A
 
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If we look at PN's past ventures, I can assume the project will be much more costlier then original estimates and much more costlier then chinese warships. As far as new SAMs are concerned, we already are getting it through Baburs. However, all relevant individuals make tons of money in such in-house projects.

I think PN will only make 1 Jinnah class frigate saying this because of past track record of PN:-

So we paid 2x the cost for Agosta subs only for ToT and rights to produce & even sell submarines for other countries. We only made 1 sub in Karachi in which French were here to help make it.

Same thing happened with F22P. Despite ToT & urgent need of more warships PN was never able to make more.

However, Jinnah is not just a ToT. Its making the whole design, manufacturing from scratch.

Ship building takes lot of time, lot of funds, approval times etc.. In that whole scenario, the trained staff on manufacturing a certain technology, the ones who get certified, studied advance courses in foreign institutes with nations money already gets retire and moved on. So by time, navy losses its capacity to produce advance ships. Just imagine ToT for agosta subs, ToT for F22Ps, even then PN needed ToT and full cooperation of china for just a 500 ton ship like Azmat FACs.. Still taking ages to deliver the last one. For 2 years unable to arm the OPVs.

PN maybe a great professional fighting force, but its ability to manufacture and absorb the technical details, make it part of their processes and pass it on to next generations is extremely questionable.

However, Jinnah can be successful if PN creates a sustainable eco-system, an environment capable of producing innovations, inclusion of private sector & other depts talent in the eco-system. You really need to gel the commercial talent wherever necessary and above all your existing talent pool must have solid mechanism through which can pass on the knowledge & expertise further on.

BTW, You will build ships whenever you do, atleast build more Naval bases first. Till now most of navy assets are stacked together in karachi. A single point of target for enemy. When we look at PAF, when we look at its airbases, you get the feeling that this force is ready for all eventualities and is prepared to taken on to adversary. This is simply not true for Navy. PN appears to be very easy going and not anticipating worst case scenarios.
Not saying that you are wrong but recent purchases and deals with TOT have shown that Navy is really interested in in-house solutions.
Actually, Nowadays tri service personnels seem to be interested in house developments.
Like PAF with its project azm
Navy with its Jinnah class,mini submarine and Hangor class submarine projects
Army with its 155m Artillery gun,AK 2 , partial TOT for VT 4,ToT SH 15 Howitzer SP,G MLRS,BW 20&21 rifle programs.
We have never seen such level of indiginization afforts in our whole military history.
Even @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has said that Navy's Jinnah class frigate project is real effort for in house shipbuilding capacity.
 
If we look at PN's past ventures, I can assume the project will be much more costlier then original estimates and much more costlier then chinese warships. As far as new SAMs are concerned, we already are getting it through Baburs. However, all relevant individuals make tons of money in such in-house projects.

I think PN will only make 1 Jinnah class frigate saying this because of past track record of PN:-

So we paid 2x the cost for Agosta subs only for ToT and rights to produce & even sell submarines for other countries. We only made 1 sub in Karachi in which French were here to help make it.

Same thing happened with F22P. Despite ToT & urgent need of more warships PN was never able to make more.

However, Jinnah is not just a ToT. Its making the whole design, manufacturing from scratch.

Ship building takes lot of time, lot of funds, approval times etc.. In that whole scenario, the trained staff on manufacturing a certain technology, the ones who get certified, studied advance courses in foreign institutes with nations money already gets retire and moved on. So by time, navy losses its capacity to produce advance ships. Just imagine ToT for agosta subs, ToT for F22Ps, even then PN needed ToT and full cooperation of china for just a 500 ton ship like Azmat FACs.. Still taking ages to deliver the last one. For 2 years unable to arm the OPVs.

PN maybe a great professional fighting force, but its ability to manufacture and absorb the technical details, make it part of their processes and pass it on to next generations is extremely questionable.

However, Jinnah can be successful if PN creates a sustainable eco-system, an environment capable of producing innovations, inclusion of private sector & other depts talent in the eco-system. You really need to gel the commercial talent wherever necessary and above all your existing talent pool must have solid mechanism through which can pass on the knowledge & expertise further on.

BTW, You will build ships whenever you do, atleast build more Naval bases first. Till now most of navy assets are stacked together in karachi. A single point of target for enemy. When we look at PAF, when we look at its airbases, you get the feeling that this force is ready for all eventualities and is prepared to taken on to adversary. This is simply not true for Navy. PN appears to be very easy going and not anticipating worst case scenarios.
Two points here. PN did not make more 090Bs due to lack of money and the french wanting to sell us The Barracuda instead stating they had stopped manufacturing 090Bs. On the 0H53 PNhas not been entirely happy and the design has a lot of limitations as has become apparent now. PN is already looking at an upgrade. Building more while you find limitations with the platform is not a good idea in my humble opinion.
I think PN has progressively built up capability empowering it to make a ship locally now. It has the right partner, and although I am not certain some capabilities are being built in house as well.
Finally please also look at the people at the helm of affirs during the last 1.5decades. They are too busy looting the country to allow any development to take place.
My2 paisas worth
A
 
If we look at PN's past ventures, I can assume the project will be much more costlier then original estimates and much more costlier then chinese warships. As far as new SAMs are concerned, we already are getting it through Baburs. However, all relevant individuals make tons of money in such in-house projects.

I think PN will only make 1 Jinnah class frigate saying this because of past track record of PN:-

So we paid 2x the cost for Agosta subs only for ToT and rights to produce & even sell submarines for other countries. We only made 1 sub in Karachi in which French were here to help make it.

Same thing happened with F22P. Despite ToT & urgent need of more warships PN was never able to make more.

However, Jinnah is not just a ToT. Its making the whole design, manufacturing from scratch.

Ship building takes lot of time, lot of funds, approval times etc.. In that whole scenario, the trained staff on manufacturing a certain technology, the ones who get certified, studied advance courses in foreign institutes with nations money already gets retire and moved on. So by time, navy losses its capacity to produce advance ships. Just imagine ToT for agosta subs, ToT for F22Ps, even then PN needed ToT and full cooperation of china for just a 500 ton ship like Azmat FACs.. Still taking ages to deliver the last one. For 2 years unable to arm the OPVs.

PN maybe a great professional fighting force, but its ability to manufacture and absorb the technical details, make it part of their processes and pass it on to next generations is extremely questionable.

However, Jinnah can be successful if PN creates a sustainable eco-system, an environment capable of producing innovations, inclusion of private sector & other depts talent in the eco-system. You really need to gel the commercial talent wherever necessary and above all your existing talent pool must have solid mechanism through which can pass on the knowledge & expertise further on.

BTW, You will build ships whenever you do, atleast build more Naval bases first. Till now most of navy assets are stacked together in karachi. A single point of target for enemy. When we look at PAF, when we look at its airbases, you get the feeling that this force is ready for all eventualities and is prepared to taken on to adversary. This is simply not true for Navy. PN appears to be very easy going and not anticipating worst case scenarios.

Lot of what you say makes sense, because it is based on historical facts.
But, I'm afraid you missed a very important aspect in your evaluation.

Any nations capacity to absorb knowhow and translate it into an industrial capacity depends on different factors, those include,

*The quality of TOT, it is easy to say we have TOT, but what did you actually get, the TOT gets lost in the details.
*Your capacity to absorb that TOT, do you have sufficient manpower, and do they have enough experience and confidence to understand and apply what is being transferred.
* Your domestic industrial strength, are you able to transfer your TOT into a functional element, it is not easy. It sounds good we have TOT, nice press coverage etc, ok, but what now.
* Do you have the financial capacity to implement that TOT into your domestic projects. Ok, you have the manpower and industrial strength but without funds, it means nothing. Any TOT is useful at most for a decade, beyond which the requirements are shifted, and what has been acquired becomes redundant to certain degree.
* Do you have a peaceful environment, where the energies of relevant authorities are directed to relevant areas, or are they too busy fire fighting.

The Pakistan of 2000 or even 2012 was a different creature, with regards to all of the factors mentioned above. Pakistan has changed, just because such efforts delivered limited results previously, does not mean similar efforts won't deliver again.
And please recognise those efforts were not at the same intensity as now, the quality of TOT to which we have access now is far better with much better support, combine that with better domestic capacities and more peaceful environment, where the leadership is hell-bent on geo-economics, these efforts make a lot of sense, and should be commended to the extreme.
 
Considering the purchase price of 054A for Pakistan, the total price of three 054A and supporting helicopters is 750 million US dollars. I don't know how Turkey can lower its costs.

BTW: India's Kolkata class destroyers cost US $4.76 billion, one Kolkata equivalent to nineteen 054A.


052D costs 3.5 billion CNY ($550 million). The cost of 055 is 6 billion CNY (940 million US dollars).
What if the cost of Jinnah class is higher than the quotation of 052D&055?

I don't know from where you find this price? I saw you quoted this BS price in another thread but again facts in PDF are taken for a spin. In what world one simple ship would take 4B? Even our Aircraft carrier costs is 2.3B odd.
Our Kolkata class ship is 1B including weapons and helicopters. The price of the ship itself was around 750-800m.
 
I don't know from where you find this price? I saw you quoted this BS price in another thread but again facts in PDF are taken for a spin. In what world one simple ship would take 4B? Even our Aircraft carrier costs is 2.3B odd.
Our Kolkata class ship is 1B including weapons and helicopters. The price of the ship itself was around 750-800m.
You're right, I made a mistake.
I got the meaning of "crore" wrong, and took the price of three ships as one ship. The cost of Kolkata class is about 1 billion, which is equivalent to four 054A ships.
 
Just 16 VLS cells? that is disappointing.

I believe some VLS cells these days have rotating missile cannisters like the barrel of a revolver to house smaller medium range missiles for different uses (like anti-sub, anti-ship and anti-air etc.). So yes, one cell can have multiple missiles housed.

Don't know if Turkish MDAS have this option though...

You're right, I made a mistake.
I got the meaning of "crore" wrong, and took the price of three ships as one ship. The cost of Kolkata class is about 1 billion, which is equivalent to four 054A ships.

WTH ?? They are still building these things with pot metal...don't know why cost is astronomical. We're talking about India here.
 

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