Pakistan's missed opportunity

[SrNair]

We essentially offered them Kashmir on a silver platter in 1962.

But Ayub Khan sided with our enemy instead! Not only India, but also the USA and all the anti-communist alliances of the West.

So who in their right mind would make such an offer again?

That said, this can be fixed in the future. After America leaves Afghanistan, I hope Pakistan will ditch America as an ally, since their alliance with America has brought them nothing but misery.

Nice logic.... friend........ nice logic..Here you are talking 3 countries that has nuclear weapons.In 1962 there is no nukes in thisAsia region.
One can find so many excuses.If US is in your places they will definitely come for the help of Pakistan.In 1971 they even confront USSR for no reasons.But china is completely silent at that time.IF you are a good friend of Pakistan ,you will trust them .After all Yahya khan continously call China for help.But US even consider a military option against India.That is why they delay surrender claim of Pak for 19 hrs.
And that is the best friend.Now you post this thread to show the real face of Chinese.You claim Pak missed a good opportunity.But they gave you 3 golden opportunity last in 1999 .China is powerful at that time.But same US intervene and find a solution.PRC is like to talk ,but cant see in action
.In future if same condition arise Pakistan will have courage to attack India.But chinese resort to same coward tactics.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Nice logic.... friend........ nice logic..Here you are talking 3 countries that has nuclear weapons.In 1962 there is no nukes in thisAsia region.
One can find so many excuses.If US is in your places they will definitely come for the help of Pakistan.In 1971 they even confront USSR for no reasons.But china is completely silent at that time.IF you are a good friend of Pakistan ,you will trust them .After all Yahya khan continously call China for help.But US even consider a military option against India.That is why they delay surrender claim of Pak for 19 hrs.
And that is the best friend.Now you post this thread to show the real face of Chinese.You claim Pak missed a good opportunity.But they gave you 3 golden opportunity last in 1999 .China is powerful at that time.But same US intervene and find a solution.PRC is like to talk ,but cant see in action
.In future if same condition arise Pakistan will have courage to attack India.But chinese resort to same coward tactics.

Your post is so ridiculous and incoherent that I have no idea what you want as a reply.

You calling us cowards even though we beat you?

We send troops into Indian territory ALL the time, and all India does is cry, and bow to our demands.

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India

NEW DELHI: Apart from dismantling a SET of strategically-located bunkers at Chumar as part of an arrangement to end the standoff at Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, the Indian troops seem to have suspended patrols to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Chumar, at least for now. Senior officials briefed by personnel on the ground said the Army has discontinued the round-the-clock patrolling it was undertaking in the area for the last few months.

Now who is a coward? Chinese soldiers were camping deep in Indian territory for 3 weeks! You had no guts to arrest them or evict them, you just gave in to all our demands.

 

[SrNair]

Your post is so ridiculous and incoherent that I have no idea what you want as a reply.

You calling us cowards even though we beat you?

We send troops into Indian territory ALL the time, and all India does is cry, and bow to our demands.

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India



Now who is a coward? Chinese soldiers were camping deep in Indian territory for 3 weeks! You had no guts to arrest them or evict them, you just gave in to all our demands.

And what you got?nothing ,you bring a bad reputation to yourselves.All of world confirms chna has expansionist attitude.That what happens.The area you talking about a disputed area,so we cant shoot with out any solid reason.Both sides claim it is theirs .If you want to know real taste then try a incursion in a settled area then you see.
IF we shoot you it bring a bad reputation to us.That is not how a democracy works ,criticize will began to come from our inner circles.When we increase relationship with US or Japan we can see how China cries.Now you boast because we have an independent foreign policy.
any way get back to topic.I show you difference between US and China.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

And what you got?nothing ,you bring a bad reputation to yourselves.All of world confirms chna has expansionist attitude.That what happens.The area you talking about a disputed area,so we cant shoot with out any solid reason.Both sides claim it is theirs .If you want to know real taste then try a incursion in a settled area then you see.
IF we shoot you it bring a bad reputation to us.That is not how a democracy works ,criticize will began to come from our inner circles.When we increase relationship with US or Japan we can see how China cries.Now you boast because we have an independent foreign policy.
any way get back to topic.I show you difference between US and China.

You were the one who called us cowards!

Now read this again, and tell me who is a coward?

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India

NEW DELHI: Apart from dismantling a SET of strategically-located bunkers at Chumar as part of an arrangement to end the standoff at Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, the Indian troops seem to have suspended patrols to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Chumar, at least for now. Senior officials briefed by personnel on the ground said the Army has discontinued the round-the-clock patrolling it was undertaking in the area for the last few months.

Don't insult others if you don't want to be insulted back. Such hypocrisy.

 

[Arya Desa]

"If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride" as the saying goes.

In this case " If wishes were horses, then the whole of china would eat".

We have quite a negative view of them:

1)They're eyes are too small, we think they ate something bitter or smoked too much bhang. (Why do they have such small eyes? It's strange and unnatural to us, even scary.)
2)They are yellow in colour, we think they have liver issues
3)We think they eat the most disgusting of things like cockroaches and baby foetuses
4)We think they all look the same
5)They lack culture and seem to steal it from everyone else; 1st they stole our Buddhism, now the they are taking American culture
6) We think their society lacks the concept of Ahimsa, they are an inherently violent people
7)We think their language sounds like someone choking on their tongue

This is just how we view you.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I was unsure about that part, which is why I said "possibly".

Why else would he have done it though?

Capitalism-Communism Drama of CETO and SENTO. Basically the early high command of our armed forces was immensely British influenced as they were former WW2 soldiers of British army!

dabong1

But Ayub Khan did certain good things too viz a viz Pak China friendship so i wont really critise him that much other then this missed opportunity.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

We sorted out our border issues with china thus laying the foundation of our friendship.......in actual fact pakistan eneded up with more land under the deal then the chinese.
“China maintained control over more of the disputed territory, but the agreement overall was more favourable to Pakistan. China kept roughly 5,309 square kilometres it contested in the Shaksgam Valley. However, it transferred control of some 1,942 square kilometres of territory in the Oprang Valley to Pakistan, which also maintained control over an additional 1,554 square kilometres of territory it already held. On balance, Pakistan seems to have gained more from the deal, as the final borderline followed closely the line of actual control advocated by Pakistan. China not only abandoned its claims to the Hunza, but Pakistan also received grazing areas in the Prang and Bund Darwaza valleys, the Kharachanai salt mine, and the town of Sokh Bulaq. In addition, Pakistan kept control over three-fourths of K2 as well as six of seven disputed mountain passes. Finally, Pakistan transferred no territory already under its control to China.” It was instead China which “transferred control of some 1,942 square kilometres” to Pakistan. When will the half-a-century-old lie the country has been fed on be laid to rest? In any settlement in the future

Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah's unwise venture during a trip abroad in 1965 when he met Prime Minister Zhou Enlai in Algiers and was afterwards arrested and detained at Kodaikanal, and later New Delhi, for nearly three years. Released on Id day, January 2, 1968, he gave a press conference two days later on the lawns of 3, Kotla Lane, New Delhi, where he was detained. It remained his home for quite some time. Over 150 correspondents grilled him. The transcript speaks for itself:

“Q.: Throw some light on your meeting with Mr. Zhou Enlai.

Sheikh Abdullah: I was in Algiers and Zhou Enlai suddenly came there one morning. I wanted to know from the horse's mouth about Kashmir, parts of whose area are controlled by India, another part by Pakistan and a portion thereof now is under China also. Naturally, I thought, let me see what has happened. So, I had a talk. Zhou Enlai said: ‘Pakistan being in de facto control of that area, we thought that we must straighten the border on that side. We talked with Pakistan and we have put a clause in the agreement that it is temporary; and ultimately when the question of Kashmir is resolved the matter will again be taken up at the time.' Then he talked about India. Next day I reported the whole thing to the Foreign Minister of India through the Indian Ambassador. First the Indian Ambassador avoided me but I did not avoid him. I gave him in writing and requested him to transmit it immediately to the Foreign Minister. It is only a question of trust. But I got indications that probably my friends in India did not trust me.” (He was arrested nonetheless.)

 

[Black Mamba1]

In this case " If wishes were horses, then the whole of china would eat".

We have quite a negative view of them:

1)They're eyes are too small, we think they ate something bitter or smoked too much bhang. (Why do they have such small eyes? It's strange and unnatural to us, even scary.)
2)They are yellow in colour, we think they have liver issues
3)We think they eat the most disgusting of things like cockroaches and baby foetuses
4)We think they all look the same
5)They lack culture and seem to steal it from everyone else; 1st they stole our Buddhism, now the they are taking American culture
6) We think their society lacks the concept of Ahimsa, they are an inherently violent people
7)We think their language sounds like someone choking on their tongue

This is just how we view you.

I do not support this kind of comments. It appears as racist. There are many Indians in North east who have Chinese traits. We do not think about them like above. Even there are thousands real Chinese in Calcutta "China Town" , they got Indian Citizenship and part of Indian society. Indian constitution prevents discrimination based on religion, cast , race. Please respect that.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

America would do everything they could to stop that from happening.

And America has enormous amounts of influence amongst many politicians in the Pakistani government. They could just do another Raymond Davis and shut it down, using the corrupt politicians under their control.

The ideal solution of course is to purge all traitors from the Pakistani government.

Simple rule, the interests of your country should be above ALL else in the realm of politics. Anyone who puts the interests of America or India above the interests of Pakistan should be sent to a firing squad.

There is an other solution as well u might call me stupid but its good.......If china invades pakistan and establish a communist gov then the much chunk of problems can be solved. atleast Communism is better then Capitalism.

 

[SrNair]

You were the one who called us cowards!

Now read this again, and tell me who is a coward?

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India



Don't insult others if you don't want to be insulted back. Such hypocrisy.

Ok.still dont come near to US.China creates problems for
your own advantage in that area.not pakistan.Now credibility
of ToI is too low in India.
Your created athread about Pak lost an opportunity.But you lose 3 other golden chances.And you blame it for pak.
Then how the hell become you two friends.that is real hypocrisy of PRC

 

[kurup]

You were the one who called us cowards!

Now read this again, and tell me who is a coward?

Indian troops suspend patrols at Chumar - Times Of India

Don't insult others if you don't want to be insulted back. Such hypocrisy.

Your links are not correct . They are based on hearsay .

India made no concessions in Ladakh's Chumar region: China

Indian Army plays down China's dare at LAC, says patrolling going on

 

[Vinod2070]

You are so wrong. The more we know India, the more it become a laughstock for us. If you know Chinese and visiting our comments. you will see that 99% opinion about their news is laughable and sarcastic: no matter its so called democratic bullshit or military progress, whatever. Especially for those who had visited India, with vivid and juicy story

The reverse is true as well.

The more we see posters like you, the more we lose respect for China and your people. The more we begin to understand the "locust" and "petty" and "dishonest" adjectives that we hear even from other Hans not from the mainland.

We just begin to understand how the "four pest campaign" and "cultural revolution" and "the great leap" were so "successful" and so much else about you folks.

 

[timetravel]

The number one rule should be: The interests of your own country above ALL else in the realm of politics.

and that is why Ayub Khan declined the Chinese.

The circumstances at that time were such that it served Pakistan's best interest not to attack India.

And for same reason, China did not attack India in 65,71 and 99. Beacuse it served China's own interests.

So China will never get involved in Pak war beacuse it doesn't serve China's interest.

But look at Chinese how cleverly they are asking Pakistan to fight their wars.

 

[Vinod2070]

In 1962... we asked Pakistan to join us in the attack against India.

But Ayub Khan preferred to side with India, for his own reasons. He had already offered a joint-defence pact to India three years earlier in 1959 during the Sino-Indian border clashes that year:

Bhutto`s foreign policy legacy - DAWN.COM



I would argue that if Pakistan had joined us in 1962, all of Kashmir would currently be in Pakistan's possession.

And we would probably have had a mutual defence pact, similar to the one between China and North Korea that saw massive Chinese military intervention during the Korean War, leading to America's longest ever retreat in history.

Such a mutual defence pact could have also prevented the loss of East Pakistan.

As it stands today, there is no mutual defence pact between China and Pakistan. I would argue that Ayub Khan's decision to side with India instead of China was a massive lost opportunity for Pakistan, and that should this opportunity arise again in the future, the other path would have been a better choice.

The reality is this:

• China didn't involve itself in any Indo-Pak war despite decades of claims of "higher than and deeper than...".
• China didn't spare a piffling billion even when Pakistan president came asking for money, being in deep financial crisis and left it for the US to bale it out through IMF. This when China had trillions of dollars in coffers that it was lending to... who else but the hated US! It didn't know what to do with that money!
  
• China didn't lift a finger while Pakistan was broken in 1971
• China supported the massive rapine and genocide of the Bangladeshi population at it's worst hour
• China has never supported Pakastan during it's worst natural disaster in any meaningful way. It was again left to the hated great Satan to provide the succour

And this thread is supposed to exploit the self-flagellation of many Pakistanis regarding this relationship which is based on nothing that can be remotely called as substance...

 

[Vinod2070]

and that is why Ayub Khan declined the Chinese.

The circumstances at that time were such that it served Pakistan's best interest not to attack India.

And for same reason, China did not attack India in 65,71 and 99. Beacuse it served China's own interests.

So China will never get involved in Pak war beacuse it doesn't serve China's interest.

But look at Chinese how cleverly they are asking Pakistan to fight their wars.

It is not their cleverness but the other side's lack of it that makes it behave in such self destructive way.

But there is hope. Many of the new generation want out of this useless enmity that they didn't choose.

We may not see it on such places but such people are probably in majority now.

 

[waz]

Fall of Dhaka was considered outlandish as well.

If you think you faced "3" times the army, and stale mated after attacking, I am gonna have to start asking you to provide sources

I know pakistanis are fed a lot of fairy tales about their army, but evidence is clearly otherwise.

Regarding your theory of "best of your forces" is baseless jingoism. By December 15th, Yahya and Bhutto were pleading with Nixon to save West pakistan from the marauding Indian Army, Fall of Dhaka and about 100,000 soldiers captured had killed morale.

You think your Army head and FM were lying when they told Nixon they would lose and save them?

Sources? If you don't even know that Indian army in 65 had 700,000 troops to Pakistan's 260,000 there isn't any more point in talking!

100,000 soldiers surrendered did they? There was only 45,000 Pakistani troops in Bangladesh.....The rest were civilians and families of the troops. And you were talking to me about being fed "fairy tales".

I talked about the idiocy of these two previously. You might want to read about Yahya's incompetence in the 65 war.

Like I said before, dozens of threads on this. Stop derailing this one.