Pakistan’s Middle Class Soars as Stability Returns

[Asim B.]

A system they use themselves, and has served them faithfully, time and again; for good and for ill.

Yeah, systems that gave them men like Hitler, Mussolini, and now the Trump. We should be proud that mass murderers are elected from Democracy.

Than why are you living in the UK? Ignoring your governing system argument, if you hate the west so much, why do you live in a western country? Isn't it hypocritical of you to criticize the west, while living a comfortable life in the west?

Democracy isn't the problem, your flawed ideas are.

I'm in the UK the same reason the British were in the subcontinent. They infected our lands with their poisonous ways and ideologies and now we are paying back the favor by spreading the word of Allah (swt) in Britain and the rest of Europe and Alhamdulillah we are making tons of progress. It seems suckularism and democracy are not even popular within their nations of birth.

 

[That Guy]

Yeah, systems that gave them men like Hitler, Mussolini, and now the Trump. We should be proud that mass murderers are elected from Democracy.

Wow, that is the greatest mental gymnastics that I've ever seen. Not only did you cherry pick, you purposefully ignored other great democratically elected officials from various countries.

What you've done right here is dishonest to the letter.

You wanna play that game? Fine. Dictatorships have also brought about monster, from Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler (dictators that ignored democracy), to Mao, Pol Pot, and various African and Arab dictators.

Your comment is so damn shitty, it makes me so damn angry just how ignorant one can be.

I'm in the UK the same reason the British were in the subcontinent. They infected our lands with their poisonous ways and ideologies and now we are paying back the favor by spreading the word of Allah (swt) in Britain and the rest of Europe and Alhamdulillah we are making tons of progress. It seems suckularism and democracy are not even popular within their nations of birth.

Bullshit, you're in Britain because of economic reasons, don't turn this into a religious reason, you damn liar. This isn't about some revenge, you're there because it is economically better for you. Either you, or your parents came to the UK, because it was economically better for you, not because they wanted some revenge for something you probably weren't even thinking about, when you came to Britain.

@waz @Oscar @WAJsal

Can one of you guys deal with this clear troll?

NO there is no irony and contradiction in my reply to you.

How convenient that you either forget, or justify the actions of Pakistani dictators, because the truth doesn't fit your narrative.

Dictators never sold the soverinity of Pakistan however Musharraf was a useful idiot and thought himself of some sort of Allama and screwed up all the hard work in Afghanistan which state of Pakistan did before him. His enlightened moderation non sense did some serious damage to our society. BUT you cannot say that he was a traitor.

It was dictators that aligned Pakistan with the west, and sold its foreign policy to the Saudis and the Americans for a few billion dollars, and F-16s. Even Nawaz Sharif was a product of a dictator, namely Zia, who considered him an apprentice; Even to this day, Nawaz Sharif cites Zia as an inspiration of how he himself runs the country.

It took a civilian parliament to tell KSA to **** off, and regain control over Pakistan's future from the hands of a foreign power, even the army seemed to agree, considering they left the decision to the parliament, knowing full well what the result would be.

Not only was Musharraf a traitor, he constantly goes out of his way to humiliate Pakistan; remember the debacle about how he claimed that Gen Raheel Sharif was the reason why he was allowed to leave Pakistan? That not only embarrassed the government, it embarrassed the army and judiciary.

He sold out Pakistan's sovereignty, and turned Pakistan's intel agency into a bounty hunting organization; that alone is enough to consider him a failure; which, by the way, you can't simply pick and choose, and at the same time claim that dictatorships have all been blessings for Pakistan.

Having said that, the so called "Democrats " who followed him, what was stopping them to take Pakistan out of this WOT mess? Do I have to remind you they were bigger boot licker of west then Musharraf, with one of them still trying to feed on crums in America these days in a hope that he can be proppled into power again in Pakistan with Washington blessing.

You've literally just deflected the issue.

You are naive if you think this sexually transmitted democracy in Pakistan is for the people, by the people and from the people, nothing but hold of few families and mafias. They are already aligning their miserable offsprings to rule over us. This ain't democracy this is feudalism on a grand scale.

It's certainly not perfect, but as the economy grows, and people become more and more politically aware, things WILL become better. Democracy isn't a goal, it is an inevitability.

Pakistan needs a ruthless surgery. And the institutions needs to be strength with professionals at the helm not the incompetent buffoons these "Democrats " have installed due to political allegiances. Once that's is done and irreversible, you can have your democracy.

Except, the army seems to disagree with you, considering that they haven't ousted the current government. Even the army has now realized that it cannot directly control the country, and its better to influence from the side. This is also another reason why Gen Raheel Sharif retired, instead of accepting an extension; it's also why Kayani never interfered with the political scene, when he was COAS.

You can claim whatever you want, but the people you're appealing to, they completely disagree with you.

 

[Asim B.]

Wow, that is the greatest mental gymnastics that I've ever seen. Not only did you cherry pick, you purposefully ignored other great democratically elected officials from various countries.

What you've done right here is dishonest to the letter.

You wanna play that game? Fine. Dictatorships have also brought about monster, from Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler (dictators that ignored democracy), to Mao, Pol Pot, and various African and Arab dictators.

Your comment is so damn shitty, it makes me so damn angry just how ignorant one can be.


Bullshit, you're in Britain because of economic reasons, don't turn this into a religious reason, you damn liar. This isn't about some revenge, you're there because it is economically better for you. Either you, or your parents came to the UK, because it was economically better for you, not because they wanted some revenge for something you probably weren't even thinking about, when you came to Britain.

@waz @Oscar @WAJsal

Can one of you guys deal with this clear troll?


How convenient that you either forget, or justify the actions of Pakistani dictators, because the truth doesn't fit your narrative.


It was dictators that aligned Pakistan with the west, and sold its foreign policy to the Saudis and the Americans for a few billion dollars, and F-16s. Even Nawaz Sharif was a product of a dictator, namely Zia, who considered him an apprentice; Even to this day, Nawaz Sharif cites Zia as an inspiration of how he himself runs the country.

It took a civilian parliament to tell KSA to **** off, and regain control over Pakistan's future from the hands of a foreign power, even the army seemed to agree, considering they left the decision to the parliament, knowing full well what the result would be.

Not only was Musharraf a traitor, he constantly goes out of his way to humiliate Pakistan; remember the debacle about how he claimed that Gen Raheel Sharif was the reason why he was allowed to leave Pakistan? That not only embarrassed the government, it embarrassed the army and judiciary.

He sold out Pakistan's sovereignty, and turned Pakistan's intel agency into a bounty hunting organization; that alone is enough to consider him a failure; which, by the way, you can't simply pick and choose, and at the same time claim that dictatorships have all been blessings for Pakistan.


You've literally just deflected the issue.



It's certainly not perfect, but as the economy grows, and people become more and more politically aware, things WILL become better. Democracy isn't a goal, it is an inevitability.


Except, the army seems to disagree with you, considering that they haven't ousted the current government. Even the army has now realized that it cannot directly control the country, and its better to influence from the side. This is also another reason why Gen Raheel Sharif retired, instead of accepting an extension; it's also why Kayani never interfered with the political scene, when he was COAS.

You can claim whatever you want, but the people you're appealing to, they completely disagree with you.

Wow man you lost your cool so quickly. You need to relax.

Avoid personal attacks and profanity if you can't hold a civilized conversation.

As for the moderators they can judge for themselves. I'm sure they don't need an emotional individual who can't keep his cool to advise them on who is a troll.

@Horus @WAJsal @waz


Now as to address the points you made:

1). I never said dictatorship was a good thing so your point is moot.

2). Coming to a country for economic reasons doesn't mean one is obligated to agree with it's political system. One can go to Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean one must accept their political system or governance.

 

[Sunan]

Thank you Nawaz Sharif

 

[Bouncer]

"Allah's gift for humanity" lol don't insult Allah (swt) with such nonsense.

Watch what you say, my friend.

Democracy is a failure, perhaps the biggest failure of a government considering that only liars, crooks, traitors and thieves com to power through such a crappy system. I can see why our former colonial masters left us such a system to keep us down.

Allah (swt) gave us the best system based on Quran and Sunnah. We don't need a man made system from some suckular Westerners to govern ourselves with. It clearly has done is no good.

Your opinion. Peace.

 

[My-Analogous]

Consumer spending rockets as poverty shrinks, terrorism drops and democracy holds

Motorcycles, seen here recently in Rawalpindi, are considered a bellwether for a growing middle class in Pakistan. PHOTO: QASIM NAUMAN

ISLAMABAD—Pakistan, often in the headlines for terrorism, coups and poverty, has developed something else in recent years: a burgeoning middle class that is fueling economic growth and bolstering a fragile democracy.

The transformation is evident in Jamil Abbas, a tailor of women’s clothing whose 15 years of work has paid off with two children in private school and small luxuries like a refrigerator and a washing machine.

For companies like the Swiss food maker Nestlé SA, such hungry consumers signal a sea-change.


“Pakistan is entering the hot zone,” said Bruno Olierhoek, Nestlé’s CEO for Pakistan, saying the country appears to be at a tipping point of exploding demand. Nestlé’s sales in Pakistan have doubled in the past five years to $1 billion.

Although often overshadowed by giant neighbors India and China, Pakistan is the sixth most-populated country, with 200 million people. And now, major progress in the country’s security, economic and political environments have helped create the stability for a thriving middle class.

An unpublished study last year that measured living standards, from Pakistani market research firm Aftab Associates, found that 38% of the country is middle class, while a further 4% is upper class. That’s a combined 84 million people—roughly equivalent to the entire populations of Germany or Turkey.

Such households are likely to have a motorcycle, color TV, refrigerator, washing machine and at least one member who has completed school up to the age of 16, the study found. Official figures show that the proportion of households that own a motorcycle soared to 34% in 2014 from 4% in 1991, and a washing machine to 47% from 13% over that same period. These trends are also attracting international business.

Last month, Royal FrieslandCampina NV, a Dutch dairy company, paid $461 million to buy control of Engro Foods, a Pakistani packaged milk producer in a country where most milk is sold unpasteurized from open milk containers.

“What we see is consumer spending is rising and a middle class coming up,” said Hans Laarakker, Engro’s new chief executive.

Late last year, China’s Shanghai Electric Power agreed to pay $1.8 billion for a majority of Karachi’s electric supply company; Turkish electrical appliance maker Arçelik paid $258 million for a Pakistani appliance maker, Dawlance, saying Pakistan has an “increasingly prosperous working and middle class”; and French car maker Renault SA said it was seeking to set up a plant in Pakistan.

Meanwhile, during the past three years, deaths from terrorist attacks have fallen by two-thirds, as the army battles jihadists. Economic growth reached an eight-year high of nearly 5% in the past financial year, and China has begun a multibillion dollar infrastructure investment program. The Karachi stock market rose 46% last year and continues to soar.

The 2013 election marked the first democratic transition from one elected government to another. The big winners were two parties of the middle class: the Pakistan Muslim League-N of Nawaz Sharif and Imran Khan’s Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf. Mr. Sharif formed the government, appealing to a business constituency with his focus on private sector-led economic growth. Mr. Khan’s previously marginal party, which has the biggest proportion of college graduate voters, campaigned on improving public services and fighting graft.

Ijaz Gilani, chairman of pollster Gallup Pakistan, said that the salaried middle class will pressure the government to improve poor public services. “You cannot move forward with weak governance, and bypassing the state, by relying on individual empowerment alone,” Mr. Gilani said.

Pakistan experienced a “staggering fall” in poverty from 2002 to 2014, according the World Bank, halving to 29.5% of the population. That period saw a spurt of economic growth in the early part, a takeoff in property values, a surge in the money that Pakistanis working overseas send home (now $20 billion a year), while the government also started an income subsidy for the poorest.

Still, the millions of Pakistanis living below the poverty line endure misery in a country with the world’s third-highest rate of childhood stunted growth due to chronic malnutrition.

During roughly that same period, 90% of the increase in national consumption came from the middle class, found a study by Jawaid Ghani, a professor at the Karachi School for Business and Leadership.

The living standards of the middle class in Pakistan and other developing nations is modest by Western standards, and there’s no agreed or official definition. A study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development forecasts that the bulk of the growth in the middle class in the years ahead will come from Asia, which will account for two thirds of the global middle class by 2030.

The tailoring shop of Jamil Abbas, back turned to the camera, in Islamabad recently. PHOTO: QASIM NAUMAN
By contrast, the American middle class is shrinking: The proportion of U.S. adults living in middle-income households fell to 50% in 2015 from 61% in 1971, as the poor and the rich segments grew, according to the Pew Research Center.

In the developing world, the ability to purchase durable goods such as motorcycles—which itself can lead to new opportunities in employment, education and leisure—is generally viewed as an indicator of a middle class lifestyle. Motorcycle purchases soared in Pakistan to 2 million a year now from 95,000 in 2000, leading Honda Motor Co. to double its production capacity there. Buyers of Honda’s cheapest motorcycle typically earn between just $200 and $300 a month, which would put them well below the poverty line in the West, but here that gives them disposable income.

“All these big companies globally, if they’re not looking at Pakistan, need to look at Pakistan, because it’s a huge consumption economy emerging,” said Saquib Shirazi, chief executive of Honda’s Pakistan joint venture.

At his tailor shop, run from a basement on the outskirts of the capital Islamabad, 39-year-old Mr. Abbas makes $350 a month from a business that employs four other people. That’s enough to rent a two-room home and buy a motorcycle 18 months ago that cut his commute to work from two hours to 30 minutes.

“I’m sure there are many others like me who are trying to work hard and improve their lives,” Mr. Abbas said.

—Qasim Nauman contributed to this article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pakistans-middle-class-soars-as-stability-returns-1485945001

What!. Are WSJ nut. How they can put good news of Pakistan on paper?

 

[That Guy]

Wow man you lost your cool so quickly. You need to relax.

Avoid personal attacks and profanity if you can't hold a civilized conversation.

As for the moderators they can judge for themselves. I'm sure they don't need an emotional individual who can't keep his cool to advise them on who is a troll.

@Horus @WAJsal @waz


Now as to address the points you made:

1). I never said dictatorship was a good thing so your point is moot.

2). Coming to a country for economic reasons doesn't mean one is obligated to agree with it's political system. One can go to Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean one must accept their political system or governance.

That is the worst argument I've ever heard.

It's like going into a lion's den, and than complaining about being attacked by the lion. Also, let's not kid ourselves, we both know that you meant.

I have every right to criticize you, when you make shitty arguments.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

How convenient that you either forget, or justify the actions of Pakistani dictators, because the truth doesn't fit your narrative.

Look, I am not proposing that we need dictatorship. Whole arguments was based upon the fact that in Pakistani perspective, dictatorship has been a lot better for state then democracy. While you on the other hand is adamant that democracy is the best thing that happened to Pakistan which is producing nothing but garbage in, garbage out. Who is your favourite "democrate"? Nawaz, Zardari or Altaf?

It was dictators that aligned Pakistan with the west, and sold its foreign policy to the Saudis and the Americans for a few billion dollars, and F-16s. Even Nawaz Sharif was a product of a dictator, namely Zia, who considered him an apprentice; Even to this day, Nawaz Sharif cites Zia as an inspiration of how he himself runs the country.

It took a civilian parliament to tell KSA to **** off, and regain control over Pakistan's future from the hands of a foreign power, even the army seemed to agree, considering they left the decision to the parliament, knowing full well what the result would be.

Not only was Musharraf a traitor, he constantly goes out of his way to humiliate Pakistan; remember the debacle about how he claimed that Gen Raheel Sharif was the reason why he was allowed to leave Pakistan? That not only embarrassed the government, it embarrassed the army and judiciary.

He sold out Pakistan's sovereignty, and turned Pakistan's intel agency into a bounty hunting organization; that alone is enough to consider him a failure; which, by the way, you can't simply pick and choose, and at the same time claim that dictatorships have all been blessings for Pakistan.

It seems I need to give you history lessons. NO. it wasn't the military dictators but Liaqat Ali Khan who stirred Pakistan towards "civilised world " way back.
You keep on beating around the bush when you use word "sold". Show me Zia bank balance, his European holidays villas, his sugar mills and what not. Until then you are just making fool out of yourself. NO ONE sell himself without any personal benefits. PROVE zia was corrupt. Until then, just zip it.

You've literally just deflected the issue.

No that's the reality which you seems can't swallow.

It's certainly not perfect, but as the economy grows, and people become more and more politically aware, things WILL become better. Democracy isn't a goal, it is an inevitability.

When you have army of minister wagging their tails infront of an non elected , non public office holding personality whoes only trait is that she is the daughter of the PM, then you are truly clueless as to what extent Pakistanis have been made fool in the name of democracy. As I said, garbage in , garbage out. This is not the destiny of Pakistan. It needs to be modelled along the lines of first state in Madina.

Except, the army seems to disagree with you, considering that they haven't ousted the current government. Even the army has now realized that it cannot directly control the country, and its better to influence from the side. This is also another reason why Gen Raheel Sharif retired, instead of accepting an extension; it's also why Kayani never interfered with the political scene, when he was COAS.

You can claim whatever you want, but the people you're appealing to, they completely disagree with you.

I am not interested in appealing to any one. I am just pointing to the deception which is Pakistani democracy. Those who cheerlead this type of democracy are the ones who are direct beneficaries of such rotten system or too much ingrained in it and accepted it as fait. Pakistan deserve a lot better, infact much better. It's people are sick and tired of the morons who use democracy name to plunder this country and sell it's honour and good name.

 

[That Guy]

Look, I am not proposing that we need dictatorship. Whole arguments was based upon the fact that in Pakistani perspective, dictatorship has been a lot better for state then democracy. While you on the other hand is adamant that democracy is the best thing that happened to Pakistan which is producing nothing but garbage in, garbage out. Who is your favourite "democrate"? Nawaz, Zardari or Altaf?

You make the same mistake that other people who defend dictatorships make. Democracy in Pakistan was never allowed to flourish; If Pakistan remained a democratic nation from the beginning, there is a good chance that the corruption of Zardari, Altaf and Nawaz would never have been tolerated, or have been as successful, people would have been far too politically aware. Pakistan would have been far further ahead of India, when it comes to political growth.

As for favorite politician, I don't live in Pakistan, so it doesn't matter who I like. Your comment is nothing more than an attempt to divert my criticism.

It seems I need to give you history lessons. NO. it wasn't the military dictators but Liaqat Ali Khan who stirred Pakistan towards "civilised world " way back.
You keep on beating around the bush when you use word "sold". Show me Zia bank balance, his European holidays villas, his sugar mills and what not. Until then you are just making fool out of yourself. NO ONE sell himself without any personal benefits. PROVE zia was corrupt. Until then, just zip it.

Zip it? Excuse you? Your history lesson is nothing more than a misrepresentation of fact. Under Zia, Pakistan left its non-aligned status, and joined the western block, which used and then throw away Pakistan, like a used rag. Your comment is not only vague at best, it is down right misleading.

No that's the reality which you seems can't swallow.

Reality is easy to swallow, it's bullshit that you're spouting that I can't handle.

When you have army of minister wagging their tails infront of an non elected , non public office holding personality whoes only trait is that she is the daughter of the PM, then you are truly clueless as to what extent Pakistanis have been made fool in the name of democracy. As I said, garbage in , garbage out. This is not the destiny of Pakistan. It needs to be modelled along the lines of first state in Madina.

Ironically, dictators in this case are also to blame Need I remind you, both Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and Nawaz Sharif were protege's of Dictators; the way they ran/run Pakistan was learned, not made up as they went along.

I am not interested in appealing to any one. I am just pointing to the deception which is Pakistani democracy. Those who cheerlead this type of democracy are the ones who are direct beneficaries of such rotten system or too much ingrained in it and accepted it as fait. Pakistan deserve a lot better, infact much better. It's people are sick and tired of the morons who use democracy name to plunder this country and sell it's honour and good name.

Ridiculous. Instead of learning from history, all you've done is spout the same nonsense that would lobotomize Pakistan's people.

here is a small lesson about dictatorships and democracies, I think you'll find interesting...

 

[.]

Not enough for the class divide :-/

 

[Asim B.]

That is the worst argument I've ever heard.

It's like going into a lion's den, and than complaining about being attacked by the lion. Also, let's not kid ourselves, we both know that you meant.

I have every right to criticize you, when you make shitty arguments.

Your arguments are shitty.

By your logic (lack thereof rather) one must embrace Saudi Monarchy if one were to move to Saudi Arabia because "oh, look at how much wealth there is".

The fact that "Democracy" in Pakistan has to be constantly interrupted only proves it's a failed system. No competent system will give opportunity to it's enemies to overthrow it especially if it has the backing of the common people which clearly in Pakistan's case it doesn't.

 

[.]

The fact that "Democracy" in Pakistan has to be constantly interrupted only proves it's a failed system.

Democracy in western nations has evolved from centuries of experience and their thousand year old history, What you are saying is untrue and stupid because that statement contradicts the reason Pakistan was created to be a democratic state under the vision of its founding fathers with equal rights for all citizens ..Only our fool army doesn't realize that.
Army had all the power to change Pakistan yet in all the coups they totally fucked this country up,They could've transformed Pakistan into a Institutional republic by giving immense power to key Government ministries like foreign policy and other institutions like the Civil protection and Assistance services ,They could've given free education to poor area's like FATA ,They could've changed the education system yet our failed army generals who forced our country with dictatorships were utter failures
Pakistan has always been better off in democracy and institutions have been strengthened ,It was dictatorship that made Pakistan a front line state in the war on terror ,It was also dictatorships and absence of democracy that divided East Pakistan with a humiliating defeat.
It was also Dictatorships that introduced Radical Islam and ruined our society all thanks to zia ul haq.
It was again dictatorships that imported Jihadi factories to Pakistan in the 80s.
Pakistan till 1950s-1960 was known as liberal and progressive country even after 60s till the iranian revolution thousands of Jews settled in Pakistan ,but thanks to your dictatorships ,It become to be known as a "Safe heaven for terrorists and a failed state"..
Whereas today Nawaz sharif has transformed the Pakistani economy ,Resolved the security situation,Picked a great general in Raheel sharif, Delivered his promises, Turned afghan refugees back who were creating problems, To the point the world appreciates Pakistans achievements today when i tell them Pakistan is the 5th fastest growing economy ...
Even zardari with 18th amendment has benefited the country.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You make the same mistake that other people who defend dictatorships make. Democracy in Pakistan was never allowed to flourish; If Pakistan remained a democratic nation from the beginning, there is a good chance that the corruption of Zardari, Altaf and Nawaz would never have been tolerated, or have been as successful, people would have been far too politically aware. Pakistan would have been far further ahead of India, when it comes to political growth.

As for favorite politician, I don't live in Pakistan, so it doesn't matter who I like. Your comment is nothing more than an attempt to divert my criticism.

The bold part is an argument just like when you talk to those who are against making Pakistan a proper Islamic republic, "Which sect of Islam you are going to implement". This argument has outlived it shelf live. Bring forth narrative which is relevant in this day and age. Pakistanis have seen already what "democracy" has done to them in last decade or so. All indicators of state well being have plummeted in this time. Bad governance, nepotism, families hold on power, economy, debt, state institutions, everything literally. If this "democary" is allowed to further erode Pakistan from within, god forbid, there wont be any Pakistan left with balkanization of Pakistan very much on the cards.

You are living in utopia when you say that democary should have corrected itself with time. You are clueless as to how seats are won during elections in Pakistan. Political parties just have to buy the local feudals on their side and all the votes that belong to his clan or poor farmers go that party. You give these lot more time, and more they will spread their tentacles within Pakistan.

I dont live in Pakistan either but I am born and bred there. You dont have to live in Pakistan to understand as to what is going on in reality. Your obsession with western style democracy is making you oblivious to the ground realities in Pakistan. Pakistan cannot have the democracy in its true essence without a proper surgery done within and institutions empowered without political interference, like police, elections commission, judiciary. To be honest we dont even need western style democracy because that itself was based on the model of Islamic state. Why follow the system which is copy cat? why not adopt the original thing. Modelling Pakistan as first state of Madina should be our goal.

Zip it? Excuse you? Your history lesson is nothing more than a misrepresentation of fact. Under Zia, Pakistan left its non-aligned status, and joined the western block, which used and then throw away Pakistan, like a used rag. Your comment is not only vague at best, it is down right misleading.

Pakistan was already with the "civilized world" way before Zia time. Its seems you were living under rock all these years in hibernation.

Reality is easy to swallow, it's bullshit that you're spouting that I can't handle.

Live with it.

Ironically, dictators in this case are also to blame Need I remind you, both Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and Nawaz Sharif were protege's of Dictators; the way they ran/run Pakistan was learned, not made up as they went along.

That is a lousy excuse, Who made BB and Zardari? BB was strongly against the dictators due to her own past, our ears were fed up listening about "amriat" non sense. But what happened? Same garbage in, garbage out.

Ridiculous. Instead of learning from history, all you've done is spout the same nonsense that would lobotomize Pakistan's people.

here is a small lesson about dictatorships and democracies, I think you'll find interesting...

On personal level, I only want to see Pakistan under strong nationalist and Islamist leadership who can guide Pakistan towards it glory. Under what system is not much of concern. Its the leaders who matter, the decision makers. But remember one thing, even though I am an advocate of dictatorship, the worst kind of dictatorship is hundred times better then worst kind of democracy, where you have only two hands plundering nations wealth against the army of "democrats" sucking the nation bone dry.

This is the reality, your rants are irrelevant.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Thats good, would love to hear this kind of stuff more frequently now as terrorism is on the verge of defeat by this country.

With the War on Terrorism now near the end. We can hopefully develop our country Insh'Allah.

 

[That Guy]

The bold part is an argument just like when you talk to those who are against making Pakistan a proper Islamic republic, "Which sect of Islam you are going to implement". This argument has outlived it shelf live. Bring forth narrative which is relevant in this day and age. Pakistanis have seen already what "democracy" has done to them in last decade or so. All indicators of state well being have plummeted in this time. Bad governance, nepotism, families hold on power, economy, debt, state institutions, everything literally. If this "democary" is allowed to further erode Pakistan from within, god forbid, there wont be any Pakistan left with balkanization of Pakistan very much on the cards.

That is not an answer, rather it is a dismissal of my arguments. You can say that it has outlived it's shelf life, but if you don't even read the best before date, you really shouldn't be using this argument.

The truth is, every single one of your complaints about democracy is something that affects ALL forms of government. If you think any other form of government won't suffer from this issue, you're sadly mistaken.

You are living in utopia when you say that democary should have corrected itself with time. You are clueless as to how seats are won during elections in Pakistan. Political parties just have to buy the local feudals on their side and all the votes that belong to his clan or poor farmers go that party. You give these lot more time, and more they will spread their tentacles within Pakistan.

I know exactly how Pakistan's election system works, and the corruption that permeates within it. Instead of fixing the foundation, you're suggesting that the entire house be ripped up, and a new house be built.

Don't pretend to know what I do and do not have knowledge of. Quite literally, every single democratic nation in the world is evidence enough of just how dismissive and ridiculous your arguments are. Even India is evidence enough of how ridiculous your argument is.

I dont live in Pakistan either but I am born and bred there. You dont have to live in Pakistan to understand as to what is going on in reality. Your obsession with western style democracy is making you oblivious to the ground realities in Pakistan. Pakistan cannot have the democracy in its true essence without a proper surgery done within and institutions empowered without political interference, like police, elections commission, judiciary. To be honest we dont even need western style democracy because that itself was based on the model of Islamic state. Why follow the system which is copy cat? why not adopt the original thing. Modelling Pakistan as first state of Madina should be our goal.

First of all, I was born and bred in Pakistan as well. Second, when did I say that Pakistan's form of democracy has to be western styled? What does western styled even mean? Democratic institutions differ from country to country, in the west; no two systems are exactly the same.

You keep promoting this idea of going back to the roots of Islamic governance (Madina), but the truth is that very few in Pakistan would support it, so what you're promoting is unrealistic and naive.

Pakistan was already with the "civilized world" way before Zia time. Its seems you were living under rock all these years in hibernation.

First of all, I never used the words "civilized world", which is (imo) a racist and colonialist word, so don't put words into my mouth.

Second, a few propaganda pieces from the 50s and 60s don't make it evidence.

Live with it.

At least you aren't denying that what you're saying is bullshit, I'd call that progress.

That is a lousy excuse, Who made BB and Zardari? BB was strongly against the dictators due to her own past, our ears were fed up listening about "amriat" non sense. But what happened? Same garbage in, garbage out.

Who made BB and Zardari? Obviously ZAB. ZAB also came out against dictatorship, even though he was himself a protege of a dictator. ZAB learned everything he could from a dictator, and passed it on though family and party politics.

On personal level, I only want to see Pakistan under strong nationalist and Islamist leadership who can guide Pakistan towards it glory. Under what system is not much of concern. Its the leaders who matter, the decision makers. But remember one thing, even though I am an advocate of dictatorship, the worst kind of dictatorship is hundred times better then worst kind of democracy, where you have only two hands plundering nations wealth against the army of "democrats" sucking the nation bone dry.

That's nowhere near the truth, and you know it.

Everything you've said is nothing but personal feelings, not factually based.

As for your wish of what kind of leader you want, right wing politics won't lead Pakistan to glory, it will lead to stagnation.

This is the reality, your rants are irrelevant.

Your comments are fantasy, they're rose tinted glasses, where you praise the good of dictators, and ignore the bad.

You can call my comments whatever you want, they're still based on facts.

Your arguments are shitty.

By your logic (lack thereof rather) one must embrace Saudi Monarchy if one were to move to Saudi Arabia because "oh, look at how much wealth there is".

The fact that "Democracy" in Pakistan has to be constantly interrupted only proves it's a failed system. No competent system will give opportunity to it's enemies to overthrow it especially if it has the backing of the common people which clearly in Pakistan's case it doesn't.

Embrace? No, but recognize? Yes. You cannot simply ignore the local government and their laws, just because you don't like them.

My argument is common sense. Why purposefully move to a country that you don't support? It makes you a hypocrite.

The fact that Democracy in Pakistan keeps getting interrupted, this has more to do with certain groups not willing to relinquish power, not a matter of democracy being a failed system.

The "common people", what a ridiculous argument to make; It is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.