Pakistan's intelligence failure at controlling domestic narratives effectively and poor information warfare

[TheSolution]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

 

[nahtanbob]

Pakistanis always think their problem is their image. I have tried pointing out to people no amount of advertising will work in the long run if the underlying product is rotten

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistanis always think their problem is their image. I have tried pointing out to people no amount of advertising will work in the long run if the underlying product is rotten

You have a point when it comes to  international image which I am not talking about. (And that too only to an extent.)

I am talking about  domestic narrative, if your population is not in line with state policy or in support of its actions taken in national interest; then that's a huge problem.

Can you imagine a rise in terrorism and people being sympathetic to terrorist propaganda over their own army? You can see where that will lead to and how it would impede the state.

Simply no sane or competent country in the world allows the narrative of terrorists/separatists/anti-state elements to dominate its own domestic narrative.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You toppled your own Country's Leader , what image are you talking about


Izzat to Us ki Hoti hai , who follows law and order.

Imran Khan is Pakistan's actual Prime Minister that is the true image


International Image : Country is dangerous , run by Dictators and has no law and order, Travel Advisory, Go to Pakistan at your own risk. Banks scrutinize transactions to Pakistan behind scene. Army General Thinks he can sit with Politicians in Western Circles and claim they represent Pakistan , while Westerners dislike Dictators

Domestic Image : Army is power hungry, Honest man can't get justice , Political Engineering
Army split Pakistan in 1971 by not accepting elections

 

[Jango]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

The whole premise of this thread is flawed IMO.

Israel is going after someone foreign to them. Very easy to gain support.

Pakistani establishment is going after it's own people, how the heck are you going to peddle a narrative in that case?

If tomorrow another Abhinandan gets shot down, you better believe Kakar and Munir would be the next Alexanders.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

As for all of this, the ISI is generally more focussed on HUMINT. Actually, every intelligence agency is, but we rely on it more so. There have been great strides recently though to incorporate technology into our intel setup, and you can see cases of that too.

But that is more for person specific cases. Like when you get picked up by a Black Vigo, the guy takes your mobile phone, connects it to his computer with a USB and voila, he has all your data.

But we still lag far behind psyops or internet campaigns of the kind the world is on. All we can do is pay some director a bit of money though ISPR and get a nationalistic, full of slogans movie. Nothing else.

Some guy at ISPR did have an idea of running Google Ads once, but after a month they stopped doing it for some reason. My guess is some boomer general thought what is this nonsense!

I am talking about  domestic narrative, if your population is not in line with state policy or in support of its actions taken in national interest; then that's a huge problem.

The state policy and actions should then be something that are aligned with what the people want.

The state leaders, officials, representatives should be the one who people want, not selected individuals who are compromised.

Getting the drift?

Our government right now is as far from representing us as a people as the Israeli government. Netanyahu has annexed Gaza, our estab has annexed the whole country, with some caveats ofc.

 

[TheSolution]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed IMO.

Israel is going after someone foreign to them. Very easy to gain support.

Pakistani establishment is going after it's own people, how the heck are you going to peddle a narrative in that case?

I'm referring to terrorist groups like TTP, BLA, etc. It is very much possible to build the right narrative for people to be strongly opposed to them and their sympathisers, just as they would to any foreign enemy. You have to have a network of news outlets and humans, that can spread just the right information maligning them and their intentions, paired with a strong sense of homegrown nationalism.

Of course for popular political party crackdowns that's not possible and there'll be natural opposition, that's pretty normal.

But we still lag far behind psyops or internet campaigns of the kind the world is on. All we can do is pay some director a bit of money though ISPR and get a nationalistic, full of slogans movie. Nothing else.

Some guy at ISPR did have an idea of running Google Ads once, but after a month they stopped doing it for some reason. My guess is some boomer general thought what is this nonsense!

I think this is a very boomer approach.

Things which are directly in your face, cringe, and look obviously sponsored by governments, create the opposite effect. ISPR productions is too forced and too in your face, need something natural and subtle.

We don't need innovative solutions, they already sit in front of us being used in countries like Israel and Turkey. You just need to take inspiration. One of the most effective is the educational curriculum growing up, pro-nationalist narratives and anthems lol.

 

[Azadkashmir]

if raymond davis can walk away or aafia saddiqi can be sold for little price then image of pakistan is cheap dictatorship.

 

[TheSolution]

The state policy and actions should then be something that are aligned with what the people want.

The state leaders, officials, representatives should be the one who people want, not selected individuals who are compromised.

Getting the drift?

Our government right now is as far from representing us as a people as the Israeli government. Netanyahu has annexed Gaza, our estab has annexed the whole country, with some caveats ofc.

Yeah I get what you mean

But as long as the decisions made are clear to people that they are of benefit to them and of benefit to the nation - they'll be understanding. Sometimes a bit more transparency and clearer explanations helps.

You can't take harsh actions that people cannot see the reasoning behind or benefit, then expect them to support it. A valid justification is needed.

if raymond davis can walk away or aafia saddiqi can be sold for little price then image of pakistan is cheap dictatorship.

Bruh I don't know why people took this as me talking about international image and opinions of Pakistan, that isn't what I meant

(International image will remain shit for as long as you are fighting terrorism and facing political turmoil, you can't fix it until that's gone)

I meant more the information war between the Pakistani state, and then terrorist/anti-state organisations - and the perception of the common citizen to this tussle and being pro-operations and harsh military action, black vigo, etc.

 

[kingQamaR]

Pakistanis always think their problem is their image. I have tried pointing out to people no amount of advertising will work in the long run if the underlying product is rotten

Tell me, how did you Indians manage to change Modi brand from a genocide murderer with a wanted warrant out for his arrest , to a Ghandi lookalike nowadays . Exactly you didn’t , you had zero input in this western interests made it happen he was brought in from the cold of China. Pakistan is facing a reversal due to western interests nothing to do Pakistani brand or how we walk or talk.

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistanis always think their problem is their image. I have tried pointing out to people no amount of advertising will work in the long run if the underlying product is rotten

True. But can't Bangladesh also learn from that? All those fake stats and promotion and still a sh!thole in the making. Not one product or service to brag about besides cheap underwear.

 

[nahtanbob]

Tell me, how did you Indians manage to change Modi brand from a genocide murderer with a wanted warrant out for his arrest , to a Ghandi lookalike nowadays . Exactly you didn’t , you had zero input in this western interests made it happen he was brought in from the cold of China. Pakistan is facing a reversal due to western interests nothing to do Pakistani brand or how we walk or talk.

You made my point. Pakistan does not have an image issue. Your needs & wants are not in line with Western interests.

Modi never had an image issue. Tell us anyone outside the US State Department in the corridors of power in Washington who cared about Modi in 2005. Modi does not represent himself. He is representing the role of India's Prime Minister

 

[TheSolution]

You made my point. Pakistan does not have an image issue. Your needs & wants are not in line with Western interests.

Modi never had an image issue. Tell us anyone outside the US State Department in the corridors of power in Washington who cared about Modi in 2005. Modi does not represent himself. He is representing the role of India's Prime Minister

Please stop arguing about "image issue" because that wasn't my point

 

[nahtanbob]

True. But can't Bangladesh also learn from that? All those fake stats and promotion and still a sh!thole in the making. Not one product or service to brag about besides cheap underwear.

Bangladesh has lot more to do to change its image. They do not have a negative image. The first thing to do when you are in trouble is to stop digging a deeper hole

 

[Khan_patriot]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

You have made excellent points. The state and it's narratives form the basis of everything from national identity to national security and we are severely lagging in this regard. We need to aggressively counter anti state narratives domestically and anti Pakistan narratives internationally. Collaboration, like you suggested, with the PRC will prove very effective (provided they are willing) since the CCP has absolute control over absolutely everything domestically.

 

[nahtanbob]

Please stop arguing about "image issue" because that wasn't my point

It is matter of terminology. Domestic narrative has to jive in with what it is being internally projected. Part of projection is reality. Part of it is aspirational and image. They need to be somewhat in sync. Or least they cannot be too many contradictions.