Pakistan's intelligence failure at controlling domestic narratives effectively and poor information warfare

[TheSolution]

It is matter of terminology. Domestic narrative has to jive in with what it is being internally projected. Part of projection is reality. Part of it is aspirational and image. They need to be somewhat in sync. Or least they cannot be too many contradictions.

Not necessarily.

Take the Israel example. Right now internationally there is extremely strong anti-Zionist and anti-Israel sentiment and its being called a terrorist state.

But Israel remains strong and stable because its people are on the same page at a foundational level and agree on national interest. What matters is domestic narrative. Which is what I was mainly focusing on here. Foundational agreement 1: Israel is their redline. Agreement 2: They know they want to decimate Gaza.

You have made excellent points. The state and it's narratives form the basis of everything from national identity to national security and we are severely lagging in this regard. We need to aggressively counter anti state narratives domestically and anti Pakistan narratives internationally. Collaboration, like you suggested, with the PRC will prove very effective (provided they are willing) since the CCP has absolute control over absolutely everything domestically.

Turkey too, especially since they face the Kurdish insurgency which has similar parallels to ours like BLA, etc. It shouldn't be hard to get some co-operation in and a team sent for training in certain skills.

But I think the root issue here is Pakistani leadership lacks proper vision and motivation, it also neglects a lot of areas because of ignorance thinking they don't matter.

Our situation would be a lot better if we fix these core areas, with a competent and meritocratic set-up things would be significantly better.

 

[ThunderCat]

They do not have a negative image.

Are you serious? They are treated like crap in the Maldives. Any country that has experienced Bangla migrants have a negative image of them and I don't mean just Pakistan.

Even as a country it's well known to be a sh!thole by foreigners. If you mean it's not a major player in international politics so it avoids public attention, then maybe.

 

[TheSolution]

Are you serious? They are treated like crap in the Maldives. Any country that has experienced Bangla migrants have a negative image of them and I don't mean just Pakistan.

Even as a country it's well known to be a sh!thole by foreigners. If you mean it's not a major player in international politics so it avoids public attention, then maybe.

Can we please avoid these squabbles on this thread that aren't relevant

I want to reiterate that my point here was not what stereotypes foreigners have of certain countries. Some people misunderstood what I meant by countering/controlling domestic narratives and information warfare. It was more about pro-state and anti-state propagandas - not aesthetic image building.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

Although you are correct, I think the problem with having this conversation is that people tend to ignore the elephant in the room.

Its been about a year and a half since Imran Khan got kicked out and what have we seen?

The military and their minion spokespeople have completely destroyed their own credibility. It wasn't just a one-off thing but it has been a long continuous string of f*** ups. It got to the point that the ISPR twitter account is barely active anymore and got shut down by angry Pakistani PTI supporters online lmaooo.

Which is absolutely insane, how does the main press release of the military end up getting overwhelmed?

The downfall began the moment DGISPR went on TV and proclaimed "Dollar will go up" right after Vote of No Confidence, that was probably the biggest blunder on any narrative building because it automatically positioned the Army as anti-PTI and pro-Vote of No Confidence.

Then calling PTI supporters "ill-informed youth" when a lot of those supporters used to fervently back up and support the narrative. Now you got the majority of Pakistani social media pitted against you and now have to deal with them on that front.

The harsh crackdowns, putting 11,000 PTI workers in jail, and the failed propaganda of May 9th really sealed the coffin for the main narrative. Now you have people extremely skeptical of anything the army does. All that effort the Army and their minions put into spreading a failed and weak May 9th spectacle could've went into painting BLA and TTP the bad guys.

The COAS calling May 9th "Pakistan's 9/11" when 0 faujeets died and 50 PTI workers died was also a kicker. Instead of diffusing the tense political situation you have pretty much tried to dive head first and clash with the largest and most popular political party.

The failure of Pakistan to put upfront any narrative can be tied to structural reasons but the horrible performance right now is directly tied to the events after Vote of No Confidence.

 

[Jango]

Yeah I get what you mean

But as long as the decisions made are clear to people that they are of benefit to them and of benefit to the nation - they'll be understanding. Sometimes a bit more transparency and clearer explanations helps.

And how can you tell the decisions are made to benefit the nation?

Kitnay aur saal yeh manjan bechna hai?

Trust me, I was the one who was most vehemently supporting all estab actions for years, if not decades.

The downfall began the moment DGISPR went on TV and proclaimed "Dollar will go up" right after Vote of No Confidence, that was probably the biggest blunder on any narrative building because it automatically positioned the Army as anti-PTI and pro-Vote of No Confidence.

That one was for the history books.

The estab basically said that we don't like the guy you elected, so he can fck off.

Ever seen a boomer uncle in your neighborhood who throws out wild conspiracy theories and spews out nonsense which he has no idea of and you as a 18 year old think, this uncle is off his hinges and needs another plate for biryani?

That was exactly what a 2 star general in the Pakistan Army made himself look like on national TV.

 

[TheSolution]

Although you are correct, I think the problem with having this conversation is that people tend to ignore the elephant in the room.

Its been about a year and a half since Imran Khan got kicked out and what have we seen?

The military and their minion spokespeople have completely destroyed their own credibility. It wasn't just a one-off thing but it has been a long continuous string of f*** ups. It got to the point that the ISPR twitter account is barely active anymore and got shut down by angry Pakistani PTI supporters online lmaooo.

Which is absolutely insane, how does the main press release of the military end up getting overwhelmed?

The downfall began the moment DGISPR went on TV and proclaimed "Dollar will go up" right after Vote of No Confidence, that was probably the biggest blunder on any narrative building because it automatically positioned the Army as anti-PTI and pro-Vote of No Confidence.

Then calling PTI supporters "ill-informed youth" when a lot of those supporters used to fervently back up and support the narrative. Now you got the majority of Pakistani social media pitted against you and now have to deal with them on that front.

The harsh crackdowns, putting 11,000 PTI workers in jail, and the failed propaganda of May 9th really sealed the coffin for the main narrative. Now you have people extremely skeptical of anything the army does. All that effort the Army and their minions put into spreading a failed and weak May 9th spectacle could've went into painting BLA and TTP the bad guys.

The COAS calling May 9th "Pakistan's 9/11" when 0 faujeets died and 50 PTI workers died was also a kicker. Instead of diffusing the tense political situation you have pretty much tried to dive head first and clash with the largest and most popular political party.

The failure of Pakistan to put upfront any narrative can be tied to structural reasons but the horrible performance right now is directly tied to the events after Vote of No Confidence.

100% agree with this, it highlights the boomer mentality of these duffers.

Not only did they take the worst possible course of action to achieve something, they then made the situation progressively worse when trying to fix it

Which proves my point how outdated or basically non-existent their strategy is. Better they send a delegation for training and acquiring skills in Turkey, China, wherever and set up a department to teach those skills at home too.

Right now we quite literally have tea and biscuit babbus running the most sensitive areas of a country that is already on shaky legs.

 

[nahtanbob]

Not necessarily.

Take the Israel example. Right now internationally there is extremely strong anti-Zionist and anti-Israel sentiment and its being called a terrorist state.

But Israel remains strong and stable because its people are on the same page at a foundational level and agree on national interest. What matters is domestic narrative. Which is what I was mainly focusing on here. Foundational agreement 1: Israel is their redline. Agreement 2: They know they want to decimate Gaza.

Israel is a cohesive society built on foundations at least for the Jewish population and united by existential external threats. The Israeli state is well run. The Israeli population is extremely well educated.

Pakistan is a feudal society with multiple ethnic groups - each with differing perception on some matters of core national interest. Pakistani state is not well run. Pakistani population is not as well educated.

When Arabs were a cohesive force they posed a serious threat to Israel. Now they aren't, Israel does not face a large opponent the size of India. When India was not cohesive Pakistan could compete or at least pretend to compete. The wild card is that Israel has a patron saint in Uncle Sam.

 

[TheSolution]

Israel is a cohesive society built on foundations at least for the Jewish population and united by existential external threats. The Israeli state is well run. The Israeli population is extremely well educated.

Pakistan is a feudal society with multiple ethnic groups - each with differing perception on some matters of core national interest. Pakistani state is not well run. Pakistani population is not as well educated.

When Arabs were a cohesive force they posed a serious threat to Israel. Now they aren't, Israel does not face a large opponent the size of India. When India was not cohesive Pakistan could compete or at least pretend to compete. The wild card is that Israel has a patron saint in Uncle Sam.

These are valid points for discussion, this is what I meant by domestic narratives when you kept referring to aesthetic stereotypes of different countries by foreigners.

 

[Kaniska]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

You are giving too much credit to Israel. Israel has definitely money, influence, and Jewish power but that is not the factor for which they are powerful. It is the US deep state that has solid backing for Israel that makes Israel invincible. If the US deep state backs any nation such as Ethiopia like Israel, then you will find Ethiopia in similar influence to Israel.

 

[ThunderCat]

Israel is a cohesive society built on foundations at least for the Jewish population and united by existential external threats. The Israeli state is well run. The Israeli population is extremely well educated.

Pakistan is a feudal society with multiple ethnic groups - each with differing perception on some matters of core national interest. Pakistani state is not well run. Pakistani population is not as well educated.

When Arabs were a cohesive force they posed a serious threat to Israel. Now they aren't, Israel does not face a large opponent the size of India. When India was not cohesive Pakistan could compete or at least pretend to compete. The wild card is that Israel has a patron saint in Uncle Sam.

Israel is also multi-ethnic society. It's far more diverse than Pakistan. You cannot tell me an Ethiopian Jewish Israeli's comparison to a German Jewish Israeli is akin to comparing a Pakistani Pakhtun and a Pakistani Kashmiri whom are much more common to each other both racially & linguistically.

 

[nahtanbob]

Israel is also multi-ethnic society. It's far more diverse than Pakistan. You cannot tell me an Ethiopian Jewish Israeli's comparison to a German Jewish Israeli is akin to comparing a Pakistani Pakhtun and a Pakistani Kashmiri whom are much more common to each other both racially & linguistically.

There are 150,000 Ethiopian Jews who are 3% of Jewish population. There are two traditional divides among Jews - Ashenkazi and Sephardic. Added Russian Jews to the mix. They aspire to the same things. All of them serve in the Israeli army. All of them participate in the political process. There is a shared experience. I doubt we can say the same for urban Lahore resident and rural Pakhtun resident.

 

[epebble]

Why is Pakistan failing so badly at controlling its own domestic narrative of its own audience?

Let's make a comparison between Israel and Pakistan - Israel is quite literally committing a genocide and their entire population is defending and supporting it. On the contrary Pakistan has utterly failed to effectively peddle a single narrative to even its own citizens - let alone international propaganda.

There's a lot to learn with how Israel shapes its population to always stand by their national interests despite what the world may think, even India does this well nowadays. A natural level of homegrown nationalism is like the health bar of every nation.

If you even go online there's absolutely zero counter to the propaganda being spread against it online. It's like Pakistan doesn't have its own professional info-network of pro-Pakistan/establishment narratives to weaken enemy/terrorist group narratives - on the contrary even Afghan Taliban has a decently strong network and leverages weird diaspora Islamists to give it a boost.

I found this interview online of someone with interactions with the ISI, even he mentions that Pakistan ignorantly neglects a lot of critical areas like soft power, and effective information warfare, etc, in comparison to India.

Forget even external enemies, it even struggles countering internal terrorist group propaganda in all domains.

I think there needs to be significant structural reforms done and a review. If you cannot control domestic narrative among your own citizens then that's a huge negative sign.

Pakistan is clearly weak in its intelligence apparatus structure - it should send teams for training to Turkey and perhaps China. You could learn a lot by co-operating with the Turks since they deal with a Kurdish insurgency so they'll have a lot of effective strategies/counter-measures to share, especially with the similarities here in Pakistan.

@PanzerKiel @RescueRanger @Signalian @Areesh @Goritoes @adnanhassan885 @_NOBODY_

This is probably an issue for the navel gazers outside of Pakistan than for those inside it. The insiders worry more about what to do when the money runs out next year.

 

[Skimming]

70 years and still trying to figure out what's wrong?

For all it's reputation (former ISI chief was/is an advisor to UAE), what has ISI done for Pakistan?

@Trailer23 @PradoTLC

 

[TheSolution]

This is probably an issue for the navel gazers outside of Pakistan than for those inside it. The insiders worry more about what to do when the money runs out next year.

Definitely not, money is of course an issue but ISPRs desperation to retake control was obvious by the poor stunts it pulled trying to retake control of the narrative

 

[Enigma SIG]

We always talk in terms of outcomes at work, more importantly you don't shove a feature just because you think it's great; there needs to be a genuine want for it.

Like do you think the common man wants a vigo or nawaz? They want the army to GTFO and the sooner they realize it the better.

Plus propaganda and psyops is meant for the enemy. Khair you're right the awam is the enemy so napak army is making itself useful here anyway.