Pakistan's Future ICBM 'Taimur'

[Developereo]

I fully expected you to bring up von Braun and you did not disappoint. It is the typical response of those who would seek to diminish the main point by pecking at the minutae. The US is a land composed of immigrants and those immigrants, along with their descendants, worked with everyone to produce. You cannot take credit away from the country simply by pointing out the original ethnicities of the people who worked hard to exploit the native resources, natural and human, to create all these technological advances.

A silly attempt to dance around the topic with predictable and irrelevant cliches. These immigrants did not come to the American shores with empty pockets and work their way into the space program. They were grabbed by the US precisely because of their pre-existing knowledge. By your logic, if Pakistan abducted the top NASA scientists and had them develop its space program, then that program would be 'fully indigenous'.

The US Space Shuttle fleet is being retired due to age. Show me a single country that has its replacement. Do not bring up the Russians. They have a working launch method that is iinferior, expendable launch vehicles (ELV) while the Space Shuttle is reusable (RLV). Will Pakistan step up? If we have to regress back to using ELV, and we will have to, it will be because of financial, not technological reasons. Until anyone else can offer a working advancement of the Space Shuttle, an RLV that is both a launch vehicle as well as a functioning space station by itself, the US remain the leader in this aspect of space exploration.

The US is becoming irrelevant in the sense that it's decision to help is no longer necessary. There are other countries, notably France and China, who are more than happy to help countries especially against the US wishes. We are not talking about space shuttles or missions to Saturn. The first step for Pakistan would be a SLV, for which there is plenty of help available. If the US helps, good. If not, it is irrelevant.

Of course, you can always suck on the intellectual lollipop of focusing on how many non-whites are there in NASA in trying to push US along to our 'irrelevance'.

Spare me your pathetic attempt to turn this into a racial discussion. I have never presented this as a white v/s non-white issue.

 

[gambit]

A silly attempt to dance around the topic with predictable and irrelevant cliches. These immigrants did not come to the American shores with empty pockets and work their way into the space program. They were grabbed by the US precisely because of their pre-existing knowledge. By your logic, if Pakistan abducted the top NASA scientists and had them develop its space program, then that program would be 'fully indigenous'.

Of course it would be, because the program would contain Pakistani scientists, engineers, technicians, laborers and assorted resources within Pakistan. Who said that an indigenous program must begin with an indigenous idea?

The US is becoming irrelevant in the sense that it's decision to help is no longer necessary. There are other countries, notably France and China, who are more than happy to help countries especially against the US wishes. We are not talking about space shuttles or missions to Saturn. The first step for Pakistan would be a SLV, for which there is plenty of help available. If the US helps, good. If not, it is irrelevant.

Right...As if our decision to help was relevant to begin with. When Pakistan decided to embark on a path to become a nuclear weapons state, was the US consulted for technical assistance? Likewise here, if Pakistan is determined to become an ICBM power, under the paper thin disguise of a 'space program'...har...har...good one...then our assistance is irrelevant anyway.

Spare me your pathetic attempt to turn this into a racial discussion. I have never presented this as a white v/s non-white issue.

But bringing up the ethnicity is not...?

 

[Developereo]

Of course it would be, because the program would contain Pakistani scientists, engineers, technicians, laborers and assorted resources within Pakistan. Who said that an indigenous program must begin with an indigenous idea?

I was responding to your claim that the US (and Russia) became capable on their own and developed their capabilities in-house. My point was that the US built upon the work done by Germany (which built upon Goddard's work). Of course everybody builds upon everybody else's work, so it becomes a semantic issue where do you draw the line and claim something as original work.

Right...As if our decision to help was relevant to begin with. When Pakistan decided to embark on a path to become a nuclear weapons state, was the US consulted for technical assistance? Likewise here, if Pakistan is determined to become an ICBM power, under the paper thin disguise of a 'space program'...har...har...good one...then our assistance is irrelevant anyway.

Glad you agree that the US is irrelevant in this matter.

But bringing up the ethnicity is not...?

Where did I bring up ethnicity?

 

[gambit]

I was responding to your claim that the US (and Russia) became capable on their own and developed their capabilities in-house. My point was that the US built upon the work done by Germany (which built upon Goddard's work). Of course everybody builds upon everybody else's work, so it becomes a semantic issue where do you draw the line and claim something as original work.

Really...? Imagine the uproar from muslims if I used that line of argument about past scientific accomplishments by historical muslims.

An idea is dead if no one act upon it, regardless of the origins of that idea. That said, the people that acted upon the idea, expanded on it, exploited it for their own benefits, and systematically improve upon it, then the credit rightly goes to that people, or that country. No semantics there, just reality.

The US did not import whole components, assembled them and launch the rockets. The US and the Soviets studied whatever that was produced before them, educate their own peoples, used the natural and human resources of their countries, and independently produced their own space programs. Same for nuclear, even if the Soviets stole the designs for the atom bombs from US, they managed to understand better its functions and its foundations and create their own nuclear reactors, warheads and weaponry. This is not the same as Iraq calling upon France (or whoever) and buying whole components, hiring foreign engineers and even technicians, import raw and refined materials, to build a nuclear reactor. That is not an indigenous program. A truly indigenous program of any kind of technology should be self sustaining.

Glad you agree that the US is irrelevant in this matter.

As if we really care if Pakistan ask US for help.

Where did I bring up ethnicity?

When you brought up the fact that the US space program had its origin from German scientists. Ethnicity, nationality or race, it does not matter. When you try to diminish US accomplishments by pointing out the original nationality or ethnicity of the inventor, it is a sign of desperation.

 

[Silent observer]

guys, we are going off the topic, please, kindly, discuss pakistan s 7000 km missile not US space and nuclear programme.

i have some questions regrading the topic and that are:

at this stage, when we are economically unstable, and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal (i mean untested in open) will our leaders (political and forces both) agree to test it? and second should we do the test or wait like we waited for the right time as we did for nuclear tests? opinions please

moreover, please keep another thing in mind also while answering this question and that is we are also in the middle of many defence deals with US (F16, may be predator, frigates etc) and europe (sub, may be nuclear deal with france). if this test result in sanctions as in past, then may be we will see history repeating itself in case of these defence deals.

guys, does it matter now whther US or russia or anyother country s space, missile or nuclear programme was indigenous or not. the fact is that these countries have a developed these programme and they are using it for their own good. US and Russia were the first 2 countries to start their space programme indigineouly or somehow. there is no point in discussing the things of the past.

lets come back to the topic now and can someone please answer my question:

at this stage when Pakistan is economically unstable and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal will the leaders of Pakistan agree to test it? and second should Pakistan do the test or wait like it had waited for the right time for nuclear tests? opinions please

moreover, please keep another thing in mind while answering this question and that is we are also in the middle of many defence deals with US (F16, may be predator, frigates etc) and europe (sub, may be nuclear deal with france). if this test result in sanctions as in past, then may be we will see history repeating itself in case of these defence deals (stopping of F16 delivery etc)

Thanks in advance

regards

 

[Hyde]

all i wish is, We send our shuttle on the Moon in my life

Don't care after i die

btw i am 21

 

[SBD-3]

all i wish is, We send our shuttle on the Moon in my life

Don't care after i die

btw i am 21

do we need to build a shuttle? US can do this because they afford to.We are a different story

 

[gambit]

guys, does it matter now whther US or russia or anyother country s space, missile or nuclear programme was indigenous or not. the fact is that these countries have a developed these programme and they are using it for their own good. US and Russia were the first 2 countries to start their space programme indigineouly or somehow. there is no point in discussing the things of the past.

Of course it does to many who are desperate to downplay US accomplishments in any way possible. Else they would not be so quick to point out the ethnicities and race of the prominent figures in US technology progress.

lets come back to the topic now and can someone please answer my question:

at this stage when Pakistan is economically unstable and at war in the tribal areas, even if we have this ICBM capability of 7000km range in our arsinal will the leaders of Pakistan agree to test it? and second should Pakistan do the test or wait like it had waited for the right time for nuclear tests? opinions please

I pointed out several pages back that a missile is essentially a throwaway weapon. That mean every time a missile is launched, there is an expectation that the weapon must be reasonably accurate at the other end -- the target end. This is called return-on-investment (ROI) in moneyspeak. Petty despots are more suspicious of their immediate neighbors than of any potential enemy thousands of km away. In a region filled with petty despots, can Pakistan really afford the luxury of developing a nuclear tipped ICBM instead of a battlefield level ballistic missile with better accuracy, obviating the need for a nuclear warhead, hence far less expensive with a conventional warhead that will ensure a good ROI? Is the prestige, aka 'bragging rights', of an ICBM worth it?

 

[Developereo]

Really...? Imagine the uproar from muslims if I used that line of argument about past scientific accomplishments by historical muslims.

Neither you not I can speak for "all Muslims" so spare me the hyperbole. I already said that all knowledge builds upon another. The Europeans built upon the Muslims, who built upon the Chinese and Greeks, who built upon the Persians and Egyptians, etc.

An idea is dead if no one act upon it, regardless of the origins of that idea. That said, the people that acted upon the idea, expanded on it, exploited it for their own benefits, and systematically improve upon it, then the credit rightly goes to that people, or that country. No semantics there, just reality.

The V2 rocket was far from dead. The US cherry picked scientists and technology from a state-of-the-art, live German program and built upon it. Not just ideas, not research papers, real live equipment and people stolen from the Germans.

The US did not import whole components, assembled them and launch the rockets. The US and the Soviets studied whatever that was produced before them, educate their own peoples, used the natural and human resources of their countries, and independently produced their own space programs. Same for nuclear, even if the Soviets stole the designs for the atom bombs from US, they managed to understand better its functions and its foundations and create their own nuclear reactors, warheads and weaponry.

I agree with this part.

As if we really care if Pakistan ask US for help.

You care that Pakistan gets it's space program despite US objections. The temper tantrum about Pakistan's nuclear program is proof enough. As much as you deny it, the US military mindset it still geared in the good ol' days when the US could dictate it's way around the world. Those days may live on in US military barracks and on Fox News, but the rest of the world (and the new US administration) has moved on. It's time the Fox News crowd got with the program.

When you brought up the fact that the US space program had its origin from German scientists. Ethnicity, nationality or race, it does not matter. When you try to diminish US accomplishments by pointing out the original nationality or ethnicity of the inventor, it is a sign of desperation.

I brought up nationality. Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. I think you better stop there instead of digging yourself in deeper.

 

[gambit]

Neither you not I can speak for "all Muslims" so spare me the hyperbole. I already said that all knowledge builds upon another. The Europeans built upon the Muslims, who built upon the Chinese and Greeks, who built upon the Persians and Egyptians, etc.

I said nothing about who speaks for whom. I merely pointed out that your admission is a rarity among muslims.

The V2 rocket was far from dead. The US cherry picked scientists and technology from a state-of-the-art, live German program and built upon it. Not just ideas, not research papers, real live equipment and people stolen from the Germans.

So how does this disprove the argument that the US space program is indigenous? It does not. You agreed that the US import neither raw nor refined resources to improve its already existing rocket program. Do not play with words with me about a rocket is not part of a space program.

You care that Pakistan gets it's space program despite US objections. The temper tantrum about Pakistan's nuclear program is proof enough.

I only care to expose the tissue thin story that Pakistan is developing a 'space program' when the intent is to develop an ICBM capability. The CLANDESTINE nuclear weapons program is supportive of that doubt.

As much as you deny it, the US military mindset it still geared in the good ol' days when the US could dictate it's way around the world. Those days may live on in US military barracks and on Fox News, but the rest of the world (and the new US administration) has moved on. It's time the Fox News crowd got with the program.

No need to openly 'dictate'. The defeat and invasion of two countries in the ME, plus our technological superiority in warfare, is enough to persuade many to rethink their foreign policies.

I brought up nationality. Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. I think you better stop there instead of digging yourself in deeper.

Utter BS. You need to take an anthropology class. While nationality does not determine the racial or ethnic component of a person, those two components often help establish initial social and cultural identity.

 

[Developereo]

Utter BS. You need to take an anthropology class. While nationality does not determine the racial or ethnic component of a person, those two components often help establish initial social and cultural identity.

Let me repeat: Nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. It's ironic that you, of all people, should dispute that, since the US is perhaps the best example of a multiracial society. When someone says that an American did such-and-such, there is no way to know from that statement alone if that person is white, black, hispanic, native american, asian, indian, etc.

 

[Hyde]

do we need to build a shuttle? US can do this because they afford to.We are a different story

may be not now but after 40 years? I said In My Life. . . . And yes we will need it in 2050

 

[asad ikram]

first of all to all the great pakistanies ,if this project completes in next upcomming two years or ...at least five years .it will be major and brilliant landmark in the history of pakistan.i have reads all the posts in which some says its in progress and some say that it maytake time.first of all the foreign guys .listen the pakistan media is so responbile and have all freedom and most have solid sources .so it should be clear in the mind of all guys that its a solid news .now as to compare with india and other enemies of pakistan......u should know that who is supplying weapons and all other stuff in norther and balcohistan province so their mouth will be shutup with this project. and as compare to india pakistan missile system is so intensive and intelligent that it never fails when it is tested as indian missiles dropback to ground with all moscow and other countries supportso it will be astep to make pakistan a super power in south asia .

 

[Enigma SIG]

No need to openly 'dictate'. The defeat and invasion of two countries in the ME, plus our technological superiority in warfare, is enough to persuade many to rethink their foreign policies.

Clearly the americans are warmongering fanatics bent on satisfying the never filling belly of their american war machine; your above statement proves it...

 

[arihant]

Welcome to DF. If you referring anything please use neutral source.

u should know that who is supplying weapons and all other stuff in norther and balcohistan province so their mouth will be shutup with this project

So, 7000 km missile posses threat to "one who" is supplying weapons to Baluchistan. You need some more knowledge about defense and the weapons. So just try scroll around other threads before saying what just you have heard from "your" source.