Pakistan's Future ICBM 'Taimur'

[gambit]

Agreed.
We consider Israel to be an illegal land grab sanctioned by gunboat diplomacy.

That does not mean Israelis, especially those born in Israel, should be killed but some acknowledgement of history and reconciliation is probably the best way forward.

Maybe this is getting a bit too off-topic.

So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.

 

[Developereo]

So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.

The Arab (Muslim and Christian) position is that Israel ceased to exist when the Romans invaded in AD70. Since that time, the land has been inhabited by many peoples, mostly by overwhelmingly Arab majorities with a tiny Jewish minority.

The current incarnation of Israel as a "Jewish State" has no secular justification. It was justified purely on the basis of the Jewish belief in God's Abrahamic Covenant which "reserved" the land in perpetuity for his Chosen People. Because of support from Western superpowers, this purely 100% religious justification was dressed up and concealed under various secular Declarations from the UN and others.

Even at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, after years of clandestine immigration, Jews only made up 10% of the population of Palestine. Yet the Declaration calls is a future "Jewish homeland" where the rights of the non-Jewish peoples (90% of the population) would be protected.

Any way you look at it, it was a land grab at gun point. It just so happened that the Arabs and Turks were in no position to resist the conquering Western powers who legitimized their conquest through sham UN resolutions.

To the victor go the spoils. Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.

 

[gambit]

The Arab (Muslim and Christian) position is that Israel ceased to exist when the Romans invaded in AD70. Since that time, the land has been inhabited by many peoples, mostly by overwhelmingly Arab majorities with a tiny Jewish minority.

The current incarnation of Israel as a "Jewish State" has no secular justification. It was justified purely on the basis of the Jewish belief in God's Abrahamic Covenant which "reserved" the land in perpetuity for his Chosen People. Because of support from Western superpowers, this purely 100% religious justification was dressed up and concealed under various secular Declarations from the UN and others.

Even at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, after years of clandestine immigration, Jews only made up 10% of the population of Palestine. Yet the Declaration calls is a future "Jewish homeland" where the rights of the non-Jewish peoples (90% of the population) would be protected.

Any way you look at it, it was a land grab at gun point. It just so happened that the Arabs and Turks were in no position to resist the conquering Western powers who legitimized their conquest through sham UN resolutions.

To the victor go the spoils. Legitimacy has nothing to do with it.

But the Arabs had no problems with how the ME was partitioned from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire to give the oil wealthy lands they have today. Only with the Jews living in an assertive position does somehow UN resolutions are illegitimate.

 

[moha199]

FYI, Israel has nukes too. Why does Pakistan have a problem with Israel anyway?

What israel's F-16s were doing in India on 27th may 1998? What did we do to Israel in 80s when they were planing to attack Kahota? If i go on it will not finish!!!

 

[Developereo]

But the Arabs had no problems with how the ME was partitioned from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire to give the oil wealthy lands they have today. Only with the Jews living in an assertive position does somehow UN resolutions are illegitimate.

Actually the division of the Middle East into little tinpot Arab dictators was a ploy by the British and the French.

The Arabs were originally promised a pan-Arab state if they rebelled against the Ottoman Turks.

The BBC documentary: Promises and Betrayals: gives an excellent account of the history.

I do not absolve the Arab governments of responsibility. I believe that they, along with Israeli hardliners, want to prolong the conflict to divert attention from domestic issues.

Most Arab governments have criminally mismanaged their oil wealth.
And Israel has simmering ethnic tensions between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.

 

[TaimiKhan]

So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.

We don't wanna kill any Jews, problem is when west created Israel, hundred thousands of Palestinians were thrown out of their homes, homes where they were living for centuries & since then these people have been living as refugees and don't have their own identity. And their land was grabbed by force by the Jews living in Israel and the Jews imported from rest of the world thanks to Western countries.

When Americans talk about the terrorism done by Palestinians, i find it very ironical how they, the Americans forget about their past, how they killed and threw out the Red Indians from their lands, and made them live in reservations specially assigned for them, just like the Israelis have done by limiting the Palestinians in walled sections carved out from their own tertiary inhabited by them for hundreds of years, just like Red Indians, who were living for hundred of years and then came the foreigners who killed them and grabbed their land, and now voice for democracy and to end evil, when the biggest supported of evil forces & evil doing if America itself.
Aaahhh just remembered, the black people, how americans behaved with them, how they were enslaved for centuries, just 50 years ago there was color segregation in the so called upholder of democracy, and now also we see number of cases where blacks and other community people are subjected to racism.

Americans supplies & funds Israel to kill innocent people & children just like killing insects, and Americans come to us to give us lecture, while on the other hand their so called friend is killing thousands of innocent people with their weapons.

Gambit Sir, have u ever thought that what will you do once someone tries to grab your home, your land and kicks you out of your own home ?? Are you gonna sit and watch or are you gonna try to get your home back ??

Why US led half a century cold war against USSR, becoz US was afraid that if it did not counter the UUSR, it will attack and grab US land.

So if Palestinians are fighting for their land from where they were thrown out, whats the big deal ? Isn't that what you will do once you are thrown out of your home ???

If US so much cares about Israel, why doesn't US gives some piece of its land to create Israel ???

We Muslims have not lost our balls just like Christians have, we fight for our land, for our holy places. Not like Christians who were mum when some years back in 2002 i guess Israeli Soldiers besieged the Christians holiest site, The Church of Nativity & fired at it.

So kindly before you lecture us, see your own counties mistake and atrocities

Israel is a murderer of thousands of Muslims and has grabbed Muslim land & wishes to destroy our 2nd holiest religious site, for that we will fight them if we have to and whoever supports them. US attacked the Taliban because they supported Al Qaeda, so why not Muslims attack US which supports, funds & arms Israel ???

And Sir, please don't reply with a BS kind of answer, you are a senior member with a Mil Prof tag, so reply as a human being after looking into the facts & reality.

US has been there for hundreds of years, Muslims had no animosity with US, but why has it reached its height in the last 3 to 4 decades ??? Do give it a thought.

 

[gambit]

Actually the division of the Middle East into little tinpot Arab dictators was a ploy by the British and the French.

The Arabs were originally promised a pan-Arab state if they rebelled against the Ottoman Turks.

The BBC documentary: Promises and Betrayals: gives an excellent account of the history.

I do not absolve the Arab governments of responsibility. I believe that they, along with Israeli hardliners, want to prolong the conflict to divert attention from domestic issues.

Most Arab governments have criminally mismanaged their oil wealth.
And Israel has simmering ethnic tensions between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.

You are just tap-dancing around the issue. You said this -- To the victors goes the spoils -- and used the Romans conquest of the region as example of how a Jewish nation-state was erased off the map. Fact is that world history is repleted with such conquests. But it is also a fact that the victors WILL do what they want with the spoils as they see fit. The Western powers have the remnants of the Ottoman Empire as spoils. They divied up the region, rightly or wrongly or mistakenly, into separate nation-states according to the demographics they felt appropriate. The Arabs made no bones about such divisions. Forward to WW II and once again the Western powers have the ME as the spoils. Give the Jews a patch of desert and all of a sudden this particular bit of the spoils became an injustice that every muslim must felt betrayed no matter how far away he is and if he is borned after Israel was created. This is a religious war and you are not fooling anyone.

 

[Developereo]

You are just tap-dancing around the issue. You said this -- To the victors goes the spoils

You just acknowledged that the current scenario is the spoils of war. It is gunboat diplomacy and the only legitimacy is the one obtained by virtue of superior weapons.

The Arabs made no bones about such divisions.

You are right. The tinpot Arab dictators with their own little oil empire are being disingenuous. I never said that Israel is solely to blame for the current mess. The Arab regimes are equally guilty.

This is a religious war and you are not fooling anyone.

I never denied that this is a religious war.
On the contrary, I fully acknowledge that this has become a religious war but only because the Israelis made it one.

Originally, it was a simple territorial conflict between two groups of people. It was the Israelis who injected religion into this debate. The core precept of Zionism is a "Jewish state". The Israelis did this for several reasons:

- the only justification of Israeli claim to the land is the Torah.
- bringing in the Bible assured the support of the powerful American Evangelical Christian constituency (Rapture and Jesus' return).
- it allows Israel to play the race/victim card by invoking anti-Semitism to silence any criticism.

It is unfortunate that the Arabs and the Muslims fell for this trap. This conflict should never have been against Jews -- only Zionists -- because there are Jews, even ultra-Orthodox rabbis, who are against Israel. ( Jews Not Zionists )

The other two Abrahamic faiths (Judaism and Christianity) are respected in Muslim belief as "people of the Book". There were instances in the past when Muslims, including the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), were in conflict with Jews, but those were specific battle scenarios against specific Jewish tribes. Post-Israel, some Muslims have hijacked that history and deliberately misinterpreted Islamic writings to define a global, perpetual jihad against Jews. That is ridiculous. Muslims, Jews and Christians have a lot in common. Jews and Arabs share many cultural traditions and there is no reason why they shouldn't get along once they solve Israel/Palestine.

 

[jalip]

totally out of topic guys please stick to the topic and provide any intresting information regarding Tipu?

 

[IceCold]

So the muslims' problems with Israel is that the Jews there object to the muslims' desire to erase the political entity known as 'Israel', kill any Jews who resist, and basically enslave any Jews that remain alive.

no actually thats the opposite case here. Israel's desire to erase any political entity known as Palestine, kill any muslim who resists it(Lebanon, Palestine massacre by Israel recently) and enslave any remaining muslims that remain alive. And yeah one more thing Muslims do not dare try to get nuclear technology even of it is for peaceful purpose as it is only the right of the west or Israel and those who try to obtain(Iran) will be bombed.

 

[gambit]

Well if it is indeed an effort at space launching, I would say that Pakistan is doing it wrong. It is easier to masquerade an ICBM project as space program because this window dressing enables the entire research relating to ICBM, to be done outside the scope of prying eyes and ears. Why would Pakistan want to do it the other way round. Declare a space program as ICBM project and draw unnecessary attention, and in the process create unnecessary flutter among powers that be?

So either it is a genuine ICBM project, which in itself may prove to be diplomatically costly, or it is just for domestic consumption. Or the report itself is not true.

And it will be even easier for the world to see through this feeble ploy. A valid space program vehicle is subject to the same ballistic mechanics as a valid weapons vehicle. Just as a 747 airliner must obey the same navigation principles as a bomber. You forget that the space program came from the missile program.

 

[Developereo]

And it will be even easier for the world to see through this feeble ploy. A valid space program vehicle is subject to the same ballistic mechanics as a valid weapons vehicle. Just as a 747 airliner must obey the same navigation principles as a bomber. You forget that the space program came from the missile program.

Are you saying the world would object to Pakistan developing a SLV?

 

[gambit]

Are you saying the world would object to Pakistan developing a SLV?

As if the world would believe that is what it is claimed to be. Looky here...The world really have no choice but to leave Pakistan alone once that facade is made public. But it is a very thin mask.

 

[Developereo]

As if the world would believe that is what it is claimed to be. Looky here...The world really have no choice but to leave Pakistan alone once that facade is made public. But it is a very thin mask.

Well, we can't walk on eggshells because of some people's paranoia.

Space should be open to everyone and Pakistan should pursue a peaceful space program, regardless of what anyone objects.

Although I agree that, just like civilian nuclear technology, some people will hype up the dual-use danger aspect to try and limit new entrants into the select club of space-capable countries.

 

[ahf_nuke1]

I want to see the test hearing this rumors for long time ...We need this for our security world have changed we do have visible and invisible enemies now we must strengthen our Missile and Space program and Insha allah we will.