Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Contrarian]

Lets see...

I don't see where it has validated your claims. According to this source Erieye can monitor a sector with angle 150 degrees and radius 350km on each side of the aircraft, therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it, it can monitor fighters up to ~300km into India. This way it doesn't even need to search both the sectors, just the sector over India. We know that the phased array radar's performance decreases as the angle increases, so at angles smaller than 150 the detection range for fighter size targets will be greater than 350km. The area of the sector that is 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the radar will have higher range than 350. If I'm wrong, please show me where and how I'm wrong.

Ok, let me go by these very figures. 350kms broadside for fighter sized targets. The AEW&C would not be flying any closer than 100kms(and thats the minimum limit) close to the border. You still get 250kms. If PAF is extra cautious, it goes further down, and mind you. Its far better to be safe with AEW&C than take risks. IAF itself wont be flying closer than 100kms. In anycase they already use Aerostats near the western border with ranges already around 350kms. More are being bought.

Why do you keep talking about "extended search modes not used in regular ops" if you can't show me where you got that info?

Where i got it is irrelevant. AESA's can be made to operate in different modes. Regular search is when the radar is searching the maximum degrees of search possible. However, when the operators get specific info about a threat in a particular sector, the aesa can be redirected to search only in that sector. All the T/r align their beams along that sector thus giving a greater range in that particular sector. That is extended, sector specific search. Which the Erieye would employ for fighter detection at 350kms at a 150degree angle broadside, both sides. Erieye has 360degree detection. However it doesnt mean that if you further reduce the searching angle, the detection goes further up.

 

[mean_bird]

PAF dosent work on AS FAR AS THEY REMEMBER !!!
If you talk of standardization it means taking out an RCS that would be available to the radar all the time.

1. When ur AC is moving in on a radial heading or moving out form a RADAR the RCS is 2 meter square. Thats the minimum it gives and thats the Standard in most of force.

2. When u calculate the minimum radar signal (returning back from a AC ) for Max. Radar range u take as 2 meter square.

whether u agree or not ......Air forces work on this principle...and i dont need to prove it ...whether u agree or not...it good u read about it on the net, but PAF and radar theory related to it dosent work according to the net

You are stating something...doesn't have logic or reference , you are not willing to prove it...that's not the way to argue for something.

If you have any reference or proof for your claim, please enlighten us and add to our knowledge. Merely stating so is not enough.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

In anycase they already use Aerostats near the western border with ranges already around 350kms.

I wont Comment on the scan sectors and range of Erieye.. but let me assure you it can do the job as good as any other system....(we dont have to scan the whole world, we need it for the eastern front)

And Friend as far as your AEROSTATE GOES.....it think you got to check up those ranges again. I bet the practical ranges and theoratical ranges dont go beyond 180 km

As far as the operations of AEROSTATS are concerned i think it can be raised up to 5000 ft. But sorry to say we are still eagerly waiting for the day where it is raised till even 3000 feet. back in late 2007 the one deployed north of Bhuj airfield was raised to only 500 ft. The problem is WIND !!!!

In war i would love to see it deployed at that place and raised till 500 ft. Cuz that white tethered Balloon will be a Good Home on Becon !!!
Check up the TOs again ...or may be go through its Practical RCI (Radar coverge indicator) , cuz i had the honor to go through it once

 

[Contrarian]

As far as the operations of AEROSTATS are concerned i think it can be raised up to 5000 ft. But sorry to say we are still eagerly waiting for the day where it is raised till even 3000 feet. back in late 2007 the one deployed north of Bhuj airfield was raised to only 500 ft. The problem is WIND !!!!

In war i would love to see it deployed at that place and raised till 500 ft. Cuz that white tethered Balloon will be a Good Home on Becon !!!
Check up the TOs again ...or may be go through its Practical RCI (Radar coverge indicator) , cuz i had the honor to go through it once

Oh yeah. Not to mention, it cant be used in wartime. Its very good though for peacetime work. The first things to be blown in wartime would be aerostats. I believe they would move them inland incase of hostilities.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

You are stating something...doesn't have logic or reference , you are not willing to prove it...that's not the way to argue for something.

If you have any reference or proof for your claim, please enlighten us and add to our knowledge. Merely stating so is not enough.

first of all sorry if i offened you. All want to tell you is that when a product comes into market they claim high ranges. Their standards of detection are not of much use in war. For war u measure it up to the worst case senario.

as far as the source is concered you know i cant bring u theoratical analysis of radar under trail, from any airforce, but thats how they do it. U dont have follow the manufaturers they just wanna sell there product. No one is pushing u to agree. U calculate it with 5m sq. RCS

 

[kokkaborra]

what about the pak and ukrain deal of awacs.are thay providing the latest one or an old version of the awacs.

 

[Zob]

kokkaburaa we r not getting any AWACS from Ukraine...my friend i think u r confusing urself with the AIR TO AIR refuellers...and as for the ereiye that we are getting from Sweden well the first one is ready and is undergoing trials and will be avalabe in the last quarter of 2009. as for ereiye not being able to look inside the indian airspace for more than 250 kms....well dear i think the PHALCON also has a detection range of 350kms....and if so even the phalcon is not going to be flying in an area less than 100kms away from the border...hence the phalcon and the ereiye both are able to track enemy movements for a range of 250 kms within the enemy airspace....

 

[hj786]

The AEW&C would not be flying any closer than 100kms(and thats the minimum limit) close to the border.

So Erieye can see 350km into India, it just depends how close to the border PAF is willing to fly it - something none of us can speculate on, although I do agree it probably will not be any closer than 100km.

Where i got it is irrelevant. AESA's can be made to operate in different modes. Regular search is when the radar is searching the maximum degrees of search possible. However, when the operators get specific info about a threat in a particular sector, the aesa can be redirected to search only in that sector. All the T/r align their beams along that sector thus giving a greater range in that particular sector. That is extended, sector specific search. Which the Erieye would employ for fighter detection at 350kms at a 150degree angle broadside, both sides. Erieye has 360degree detection. However it doesnt mean that if you further reduce the searching angle, the detection goes further up.

You are claiming that Erieye has to sacrifice situational awareness to monitor out to 350km, yet you show no proof of this. How is where you got this info irrelevant? Not all AESA radars are the same, Erieye is a very capable system and they certainly will not allow the public to know its full capabilities. Why don't you show me where your info is from?
Performance of phased array radars generally reduces when the beam is angled further away from 90 degrees. If 350km range is along a sector of angle 150 degrees, why isn't it reasonable to assume that range may well be slightly improved in the area of the sector whose angle is much smaller than 150 degrees?

 

[spurdozer]

Guys, Any one who knows the technical specifications of Chinese KJ-200 AWACS which Paksitan is going to acquire? Tell me!! Thanks

 

[Contrarian]

So Erieye can see 350km into India, it just depends how close to the border PAF is willing to fly it - something none of us can speculate on, although I do agree it probably will not be any closer than 100km.

Atleast we agree on something.

You are claiming that Erieye has to sacrifice situational awareness to monitor out to 350km, yet you show no proof of this. How is where you got this info irrelevant? Not all AESA radars are the same, Erieye is a very capable system and they certainly will not allow the public to know its full capabilities. Why don't you show me where your info is from?
Performance of phased array radars generally reduces when the beam is angled further away from 90 degrees. If 350km range is along a sector of angle 150 degrees, why isn't it reasonable to assume that range may well be slightly improved in the area of the sector whose angle is much smaller than 150 degrees?

I have used the same sources presented to me on this forum for the range. Erieye is a good and capable system, it doesnt imply it has to have very long range. You are also free to look up and read up on AESA study and extended beam search employed by AESA's-specifically in AWACS like Wedgetail.

Not being able to look very deep in India does not imply it is not good. It serves the purpose PAF needs it for. PAF would be the defensive force, and for that purpose Erieye is a beautiful system, highly jam resistant among other qualities.

 

[hj786]

You are also free to look up and read up on AESA study and extended beam search employed by AESA's-specifically in AWACS like Wedgetail.

I would appreciate it if you could give me a link, I couldn't find anything about max. range being reached in an "extended beam search" mode, that means focusing the beam in a certain direction and ignoring the rest of the sector. Don't AESA radars move their beams around to scan the area instantaneously, this being one of their main advantages?

Guys, Any one who knows the technical specifications of Chinese KJ-200 AWACS which Paksitan is going to acquire? Tell me!! Thanks

I don't know anything other than it will probably not be as good as Erieye in certain roles, otherwise PAF would not have bought 4 Saab 2000 Erieye. Anybody have more info?

 

[MaXimMaRz]

For those who are arguing over erieye ranges

Leave aside the actual ranges, trust me it can guide a strike into india and recover it back without exposing itself to a potential threat.

secondly those of you who think that its scan capability reduce in terms of azimuth or range when it scans a perticular sector ....stop thinking that.

Active phased arrray radars use phase shiffters in there trasmitter module . a phase shift in the EM wave changes its propagation direction thus you dont have to rotate your antenna and the job is done. its more like a torch inyour hand wiht which you scan a area. the diffrence is its is done so fast that with a blink of an eye the whole dame sector is scanned.

As far as a specific sector scanning is concerned , it means you repeatedly rotate your torch on that particular sector, again its done so fast thanks to the speed of EM waves , you never feel any diffence in the ranges....

so no ranges reduce , and offcourse erieye has its limitations, but since it is good at the task we want to assign to it so its the best choice for us. !

 

[hj786]

Thanks maximarz, that is what I wanted to say but I did not have enough understanding to put it into words properly.

 

[Zob]

hey ok now i am confused what are the ranges of the PHALCON cuz when ask any indian the only answer i get is that it is the most advanced system out there!!!

 

[hj786]

hey ok now i am confused what are the ranges of the PHALCON cuz when ask any indian the only answer i get is that it is the most advanced system out there!!!

Please start a new thread bro, lets not ruin the Pakistani AEW/C thread with an argument!