Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[MaXimMaRz]

250 JF17's, 36 J10's and some 90 Block52 can do the job easily... Protecting doesn't mean you need hundreds of airplanes... 50% will be airborne and even then we will have double view, add to that ground based radars and you will have something unhealthy for our opponent.

The Indians are making much noise about that they are now being to able to see through Pakistan... Well, They did that in the past pretty good. Pakistan is a flat area and it is easy to have some people watching something going up. We had problems with Indian depth. Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement. We can see every ship. We can see every plane... Certainly the huge RCS of the MKI...

I am Pretty Shocked to hear that you carry this impression in mind that an airforce will keep 50% of its asset in the air at the same time to defend its ground !! Although it leaves no room for explanation cuz it means u need to the basics of Air Power Asset Management ( NO Offense). But i will still try to explain a few things for your consumption in the simplest form.

1. No Air Power in the world Works on the Principle of Massing AC in air.

2. The Moment you Bring 50% or Make it 30 % of ur assest in air at the same time, you will not just loose your Offensive Posture but in the next 3 to 4 hours they re going to come and Cook your Geese there and then.

3. Defending Your Land (In Air WARFARE senario) doesnt mean that you deploy AC all Along the border , Even Army dosent do that in a Conflict. You select Important Ingress routes of the enemy (ingress = Entry Points).

4. Then you calculate How much time you will get to intercept a perticular Strike , Now depending on that time You decide wether u gonna keep A pair of AC in Air At that point or you will keep them on ground and send them once u detect that threat.

5. Maintainable CAPS (combat air petrol ) in not a simple 2+2 = 4. There are some many variables involved like :
.. AC Endurance
.. The distance of the CAP point form its Ground station
.. The Height at which the AC is gonna operate ( mostly AC consumes more fuel at lower and higher altitude Brackets, Medium level is more fuel friendly.
.. The Speed an AC maintain during its patrolling (AC operating on foward locations have to be at there best combat speed all the time , those operating at retarded positions have the liberty to maintain cruse speed)
and there are many more factors .......

6. Its a Complicated combination of Calculations carried out for every minute of the war...!!!

7. AIRCRAFT ARE NOT SOLDIERS OR WAR HORSES THAT CAN BE DEALT SO EASILY

and as far as your flat area theory of yours is concerned I HOPE IT DOESN'T MEAN WHAT I THINK IT MEANS...PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME
NO offense , its just that u should know ...

 

[Contrarian]

Now we can look 300-400 km inside India... We can see every troop movement..

No, you cant. Double check the range of Erieye with the target size-specially for aircrafts. Then think whether your AEW&C would be flying close to the border or far! Because that is the extreme detection range of Erieye, in a focussed beam in one sector...for ship sized targets.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Air Marshal Rao Qamar is appointed the Air Chief of Pakistan. Can anyone please shed some light on his career and him as a person in this role (comparing with the previous two chiefs - Kalim Saadat and Tanvir Mehmood). My concern is that this appointment has been made by Mr 10% !!!!!!!!!!

 

[hj786]

No, you cant. Double check the range of Erieye with the target size-specially for aircrafts. Then think whether your AEW&C would be flying close to the border or far! Because that is the extreme detection range of Erieye, in a focussed beam in one sector...for ship sized targets.

EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
"The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
"450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"

Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.

 

[mean_bird]

EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
"The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
"450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"

Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.

Just to add, a "standard" or "normal" fighter is 5m² and a rough formula to calculate range for a radar for any fighter can be calculated as

Detection range = ( RCS(fighter)/RCS (standard fighter) )¨0.25 * Range (standard fighter).

If range = 350km, and RCS of Su-30 (estimated) = 15m²

Therefore detection range = (15/5)^0.25 *350 = 460, or since the instrumental range is 450km, that mean an Su - 30 can be detected at 450km.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Just to add, a "standard" or "normal" fighter is 5m² and a rough formula to calculate range for a radar for any fighter can be calculated as

Detection range = ( RCS(fighter)/RCS (standard fighter) )¨0.25 * Range (standard fighter).

If range = 350km, and RCS of Su-30 (estimated) = 15m²

Therefore detection range = (15/5)^0.25 *350 = 460, or since the instrumental range is 450km, that mean an Su - 30 can be detected at 450km.

1. Fighter size RCS is 2 meter square (Standard)

2. Airliners or commercial Size is 4 meter Square

Refernce : "BASIC RADAR THEORY" by squalnik (author's name spelling i dont remember) Its there in the first chapter , some where u derive the max. theoratical range of a radar.

 

[mean_bird]

1. Fighter size RCS is 2 meter square (Standard)

2. Airliners or commercial Size is 4 meter Square

Refernce : "BASIC RADAR THEORY" by squalnik (author's name spelling i dont remember) Its there in the first chapter , some where u derive the max. theoratical range of a radar.

That's completely false information you provided there.

A large jet aircraft (e.g KC-135) has an RCS of 100m², and the F-15 has an RCS of 12m².

Please provide a reference of what you are claiming...like something online that can be verified or take a picture of the page of that book and post it. I think you are mistaking something else or don't remember correctly.

As for standard fighter size, its either 3m² or 5m²...as far as I remember its 5m²

 

[MaXimMaRz]

That's completely false information you provided there.

A large jet aircraft (e.g KC-135) has an RCS of 100m², and the F-15 has an RCS of 12m².

Please provide a reference of what you are claiming...like something online that can be verified or take a picture of the page of that book and post it. I think you are mistaking something else or don't remember correctly.

As for standard fighter size, its either 3m² or 5m²...as far as I remember its 5m²

PAF dosent work on AS FAR AS THEY REMEMBER !!!
If you talk of standardization it means taking out an RCS that would be available to the radar all the time.

1. When ur AC is moving in on a radial heading or moving out form a RADAR the RCS is 2 meter square. Thats the minimum it gives and thats the Standard in most of force.

2. When u calculate the minimum radar signal (returning back from a AC ) for Max. Radar range u take as 2 meter square.

whether u agree or not ......Air forces work on this principle...and i dont need to prove it ...whether u agree or not...it good u read about it on the net, but PAF and radar theory related to it dosent work according to the net

 

[Contrarian]

EMB-145 Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft - Air Force Technology
"The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km."
Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Products A-Z
"450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage"

Neither you nor I know the actual range of Saab 2000 Erieye against any target, whether it is a ship or an aircraft. If you have anything to support your claim, please post it.

I said that the range of 400kms is SECTOR specific-ie in a focussed search(or extended search as you may call it), not general search. That range is not applicable.

RCS of Su-30 by estimates is 10sqm. Std is 2sqm. And standard is different for different Airforces. USAF IIRC uses 1sqm, Russia uses 3sqm as their standard.

Now recalculate your figures. Then factor in the distance from the border where the SAAB 2000 would be flying.

 

[hj786]

I said that the range of 400kms is SECTOR specific-ie in a focussed search(or extended search as you may call it), not general search. That range is not applicable.

Please stop posting words and start posting sources.

According to Janes.com:
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jav/jav_0511.html

The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network. The system employs a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array housed in a dorsal 'plank' fairing. The antenna is fixed, and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides for improved detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with radar-dome antenna systems.Erieye detects and tracks air and sea targets out to the horizon (and beyond due to anomalous propagation) - instrumented range has been measured at 450 km. Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.Other system features include:Adaptive waveform generation (including digital, phase-coded pulse compression), signal processing and target trackingTrack While Scan (TWS)Low sidelobe values (throughout the system's angular coverage)Low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modesFrequency agilityAir-to-air and sea surveillance modesTarget radar cross-section displayThe radar operates as a medium- to high-PRF pulse-Doppler, solid-state radar, in E/F-band (3 GHz), incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules that combine to produce a pencil beam, steered as required within the operating 150° sector each side of the aircraft (one side at a time). It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector. The aircraft could be manoeuvred to

PAF's Saab 2000 has 5/6 operator stations plus 2 command stations, therefore has command/control capability.
Erieye can scan fighters out to 350km in a 150 degree search area on each side.

According to this source, Saab 2000 Erieye AEW/C can sit 250km from the border, search for/monitor/track aircraft 100km inside the Indian border and command/control PAF fighters (as well as send radar pictures down to ground stations). What more does PAF need?

Not only that, but the Chinese AEW/C has 4 turboprop engines so can fly higher than the twin turboprop Saab 2000 and therefore have greater range.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Please stop posting words and start posting sources.


Not only that, but the Chinese AEW/C has 4 turboprop engines so can fly higher than the twin turboprop Saab 2000 and therefore have greater range.

All AEW or AWACS fly at an altitude where they can use there full beam or lobe to its maximum, and cater for the earths curvature. Any thing flying above that level might increase or reduce its endurance interms of time but since it has already catered for the earths curvature climbing further up wont give u a better pic.

Till the time your reciver sensitivety or incoming singnal doesnt increase (keeping rest of the variables constant) the range will remain the same. Cuz you electronic horaizan remains the same.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

The main reason for the birth of airborne radar is that it gives you a better low level coverage (interms of range) as it is airborne, it counters the earths curvature and gives u a better horaizan to scan (high to low).

A ground based radar has the disadvantage of encountering screenings like mountains and other things, and its electronic or radar horaizan cant get beyond earths curvature (interms of low level scan only).

 

[Contrarian]

Your article just confirms what i said.

350kms range in an extended search mode-implying that other sectors suffer when using extended or sector search.

So its 350kms, at 150 degrees. It still means that i am validated when i said that Pakistan cannot get a 300-400kms look inside India.
That too in an extended search mode, not used for regular ops.

 

[hj786]

Your article just confirms what i said.
350kms range in an extended search mode-implying that other sectors suffer when using extended or sector search.
So its 350kms, at 150 degrees. It still means that i am validated when i said that Pakistan cannot get a 300-400kms look inside India.
That too in an extended search mode, not used for regular ops.

Lets see...

...instrumented range has been measured at 450 km. Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 350 km, in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft...

I don't see where it has validated your claims. According to this source Erieye can monitor a sector with angle 150 degrees and radius 350km on each side of the aircraft, therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it, it can monitor fighters up to ~300km into India. This way it doesn't even need to search both the sectors, just the sector over India. We know that the phased array radar's performance decreases as the angle increases, so at angles smaller than 150 the detection range for fighter size targets will be greater than 350km. The area of the sector that is 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the radar will have higher range than 350. If I'm wrong, please show me where and how I'm wrong.

Why do you keep talking about "extended search modes not used in regular ops" if you can't show me where you got that info?

 

[MaXimMaRz]

therefore if it is flying parallel to the border, ~50km away from it,

50 KM !!! is way too less