Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hello, this is not indian mki Thread so maybe tell your friend to post it in indian Thread.

Dear i have asked this question here because i think it is related to Network Centric warfare, the heart of which is Pakistani AEW system. Indian claims of detecting fighter size aircraft out at the range of 200kms or more.. and then trying to degrade performance of JF-17 radar, which can detect fighter at mere 105kms.

Got my point?

and my friend? i haven't got any friend here yet.

 

[gambit]

@gambit

Sir, few questions regarding air-borne radars. Indians claim that their MKI is a mini-AWACS.

First...I can put myself on a hot air balloon, put on pair of binocs, and call myself an 'AWACS' if I wanted to.

Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS) is a conceptual label, not necessarily restricted to an aircraft, although, based upon what we want, we designed an aircraft to fit that conceptual label so eventually a particular aircraft with certain hardware specifically manufactured to observe and direct became synonymous with the initials AWACS.

So can the Indians say the MKI is a 'mini-AWACS'? Yes, but so can I when I place myself in a hot air balloon and equipped with only a pair of binocs. The MKI will just be a far better AWACS than I.

Sir, kindly shed some light on how a war-plane itself expose to opposing side, when it switch on its Radar or try to track a target at longer ranges with maximum power output?

What will be the difference of tracking a MKI if
Case 1: Its coming with its own radar switched off and relying solely on its networking with AWACS.
Case 2: Its coming with its own radar switched on at max power out-put

Thanks in advance Sir.

The MKI in 'Case 2' will be the same as if a person is holding a powerful hand torchlight in the dark.

Let me put it this way...And this is how I explained to my trainees a long time ago...

Assume 5 men completely blindfolded in a typical playground. Assume a 6th man in a tall building nearby with a pair of binocs observing the playground. Assume all are in radio communication with each other. The observer in the building will be directing each man -- down in the playground -- on how many steps to take, turn how many degrees to which direction, how fast are the steps, how long to walk, and even how long are the paces.

Next...We are going to put the entire environment into complete darkness and give the observer a powerful search light. Each of the 5 men in the playground is also equipped with his own flashlight but they are ordered to keep the lights off. It is still the responsibility of the observer (AWACS) to direct the travels of the 5 men but now being in the dark, it is much more difficult, less efficient, and longer for any man to move anywhere without colliding into any structures common to a playground. The 5 men must have complete trust in the observer because their mission is to cross the entire playground area without colliding into any structure and be detected by anyone not part of the group.

This is the concept of the AWACS.

Being blindfolded is the equivalent of having your own radar on 'standby'. Not 'off' but 'standby'. Your own search light is the 'transmit' half of radar detection. Your eyes make up the 'receive' half of radar detection. So being on 'standby' means your finger is on the light's button ready to turn it on as well as ready to remove the blindfold. Then being in the dark is the equivalent of your eyes not working in the non-visible wavelength spectrum. So when you turn on your flashlight, it is the equivalent of being able to see in that spectrum.

So if any of the 5 men in the playground turn on his flashlight and remove his blindfold so he can see where he is going ON HIS OWN, other observers can immediately see and track this man.

Bottom line is that in a networked airborne combat situation, you must have the utmost confidence in your AWACS 'master' by simple virtue that he have the most powerful 'search light' to see the furthest. In return, the AWACS must work hard to earn the complete trust of the fighters because it is they who does the actual combat and protects the AWACS. The AWACS must provide information accurately and quickly when queried and must have adequate projections of a particular conflict area under his observation but this very difficult to quantify on what is 'adequate'.

This is why the USAF and USN exercise this relationship constantly. Debriefing can take literally hours, depending on the complexity of the flying day. We make all kinds of mistakes, from minor to major. We take conceptual as well as operational risks to explore how to better cope with the dynamics of air combat and there is no way to do this outside of real flying.

 

[sancho]

...So if any of the 5 men in the playground turn on his flashlight and remove his blindfold so he can see where he is going ON HIS OWN, other observers can immediately see and track this man.

But the advantage of AWACS or the Mini AWACS concept is not only to see (more), but also to command the others. Just as you explained in the first part:

The observer in the building will be directing each man -- down in the playground

Which is the crucial point, since if the 5 turn on their torches they might see a part of the playground on their own, but will act on their own too, while the AWACS / Mini AWACS concept requires the observer that can see more of the whole playground to guide the others not only in direction, but also in their tactics.
That's what happend in the Cope India exercises for example, where Su 30s guided Migs thanks to better view of the playground and told them when to engage and when to retreat. The term mini AWACS is nonsense of course, but the concept of data sharing is quiet normal for fighter forces, be it in active passive combos, or from more capabable to less capable fighters.
That's why US forces considering the use of F22 / teen fighter combos. The earlier will take advantage of stealth to get ahead of the followers and remain undetected, but will be able to gather a lot of sensor data, which then will be shared with the teens. The F22 will be the "forwarded" observer and direct the teens to engage, or to retreat, just like the Su 30, or an AWACS would do, only from a different position.

 

[gambit]

But the advantage of AWACS or the Mini AWACS concept is not only to see (more), but also to command the others.

In the early days of the AWACS, the focus was on 'Early Warning' over 'Control', as in AEW&C. Then as the hardware and operation matures, the conceptual risk taking took us to where 'Control' is equal burden on both controller and clients to understand the final goal of the concept in the first place.

 

[air marshal]

 

[Safriz]

^^ what type is this???

 

[Bratva]

^^ what type is this???

Kia howa Safriz bhai, ZDK03 hai ye

 

[Safriz]

Kia howa Safriz bhai, ZDK03 hai ye

Oh yes...
I was commenting from my mobile so couldn't figure out...

 

[TOPGUN]

What a beauty .. I actually think it is a good looking bird

 

[Liquidmetal]

We would love to see the internal/cabin images to ascertain the layout and sophistication of this bird @Windjammer et al any chance of getting some internal pics? Please.

 

[Saleem]

I dont know why u are excited---all the AWACS were destroyed in the raid.....the air force leadership is sold out--they cant even arrange proper base security --what do you expect with asif the Z man appointing commanders....

 

[Pinnacle]

Erieyes had to play a key role with our F-16s. Currently we only operate one Saab-2000 as one was totally blown two were badly damaged by the terrorists...
Now what would be the next plan of PAF ?
It will be very difficult for PAF to operate only one aircraft for F-16s... Will they order more Erieyes or not ??
Can someone plz tell me that can f-16s be linked with zdk-03 ??

 

[rohailmalhi]

Erieyes had to play a key role with our F-16s. Currently we only operate one Saab-2000 as one was totally blown two were badly damaged by the terrorists...
Now what would be the next plan of PAF ?
It will be very difficult for PAF to operate only one aircraft for F-16s... Will they order more Erieyes or not ??
Can someone plz tell me that can f-16s be linked with zdk-03 ??

I think they the damaged one are being repaired and PAF is converting the jet for training in to ERIEYE. So the total number will come again to 4.

 

[Viper0011.]

That's why US forces considering the use of F22 / teen fighter combos. The earlier will take advantage of stealth to get ahead of the followers and remain undetected, but will be able to gather a lot of sensor data, which then will be shared with the teens. The F22 will be the "forwarded" observer and direct the teens to engage, or to retreat, just like the Su 30, or an AWACS would do, only from a different position.

Actually, the concept is different. Sensor's are of course inter connected and that was the case way before the adoption of the F-22. However, the F-22 plays the most important role as an offensive jet. It's job is to share data and that's just a secondary aspect of the sensors. But the primary option is to eliminate threat and achieve dominance while remain stealthy.

Remember, three f-22's fully armed can literally take out a squadron of the most advanced 4.5 generation jets before they can be seen or tracked. That gives the 'strike package' the ideal and the safest option to conduct its operation. Also, the F-22 can go in, completely waste an deference system and sensors to ashes and remain airborne for additional offensive support, paving the way for other air, naval and land assets to move in and do their job. Once the mission is completed, and the F-22 is flying CAP, then it'll move to its secondary role, i.e. providing information. But here's the difference, if it didn't do that, even then all the necessary information is still being collected through AWACS, UAV's, Sats, IR and long range sensors on board other assets. For example, the F-35 can track a missile or launch of a missile from over 800 miles away, identifying the enemy position, track assets, etc.

 

[nomi007]

We would love to see the internal/cabin images to ascertain the layout and sophistication of this bird @Windjammer et al any chance of getting some internal pics? Please.

cockpit of kj-200
hope cockpit of zdk-03 is same