Developereo
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Depends how you compute the costs. In any case, I agree that there are alternative tactics. I was merely pointing out that this is one tactic.
Pakistanis debate real enemy: girl-shooting Taliban or drone-firing US
- Thread starter BanglaBhoot
- Start date
Depends how you compute the costs. In any case, I agree that there are alternative tactics. I was merely pointing out that this is one tactic.
niaz
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The state of confusion in Pakistan is aptly described in the following article:
Our crumbling state
Babar Sattar
Saturday, October 20, 2012
From Print Edition
Legal eye
The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad.
At what point does loss of control over territory rise to a level that it becomes unacceptable for the state? Let us consider a few random events. A while back the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) slaughtered 11 soldiers of Pakistan Army, taped the massacre and released the gruesome video for public viewing. What is the impact of a harrowing event such as this on the morale of troops fighting for the Pakistani flag? Is the beheading of Pakistani soldiers at the hands of militants entrenched within our sovereign territory acceptable damage for our military high command and political elite? Is some larger national interest being served here that the simpletons amongst us cant fathom?
This past Monday, the TTP attacked a police check post on the Peshawar-Kohat road and killed a superintendent of police and six other officers of the police and FC. The attack reportedly lasted some three hours and the militants took away rocket launchers, Kalashnikovs and other weapons that they found at the post. But that wasnt all. They also severed the heads of the SP and the two FC officials and took them along as trophies. How did the state respond? It announced a bravery award for the SP. How long do we expect our soldiers and police officials to exhibit the resolve to confront ruthless terrorists and risk agonising deaths when the state itself is found dithering?
We have had fearless officers like Malik Saad and Sifwat Ghayur taken out by the TTP and the state did nothing. We have probably lost more than 500 police officers in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa alone over the last decade. A few days ago a brigadier of Pakistan Army, presently serving at the ISI, was abducted from Defense Housing Authority, Islamabad in broad daylight and his driver shot. The TTP is now also threatening the pro-Malala enemy media and has apparently prepared a hit list of journalists. These incidents are as heart wrenching as they are thought provoking.
The Pakistani state has been failing to uphold the citizens right to life and freedom from fear for a while. When it exhibits no determination to protect the life of those who are responsible for protecting the lives of everyone else, one wonders not just about the resolve of the state but also its capacity. If the perception that the state lacks the will and ability to fight terrorists becomes entrenched, wouldnt rationality demand those sitting on the fence to hedge their bets and acquiesce in the agenda of terrorists?
If the state is unable or unwilling to secure life and property, wouldnt people at some point, out of sheer necessity, switch sides and submit to the will of those capable of inflicting harm on them? Wouldnt those who have successfully annexed state territory and possess effective control, as well as the ability to enforce their orders, emerge as the de facto sovereigns? Isnt this what happened in Swat? And didnt we learn from our own bitter experience that it is impossible to appease terrorists or negotiate with them and that the longer you allow them to thrive the harder it is to dislodge them?
Lets go back to the basics of statecraft. When a citizen kills another it is murder. When the state executes a citizen in accordance with law, it is justice. When a soldier, policeman or citizen stakes their life in pursuit of declared national security or foreign policy, it is patriotism. When a citizen picks up arms to fight the state for its pursuit of stated foreign or national security policy objectives, it is treason. These are bright-line rules. You can disagree with state policy, its law and order strategies, excessive use of force or with its breach of due process and try to foster change. But you cannot declare war on the state due to disagreement.
The foundational requirements of a functional state in this context include (i) its monopoly over use of force within its territory, (ii) peoples acceptance of states monopoly over use of force (i.e. writ of the state), and (iii) states ability to enforce its writ and have in place a system of credible deterrence against those inclined to defy state authority. A functional state cannot share its monopoly over use of force with non-state actors or allow non-state actors to prevail upon state actors. And if it does, that marks the states descent into anarchy.
The Pakistani state has lost control over North Waziristan, which everyone agrees has become the den of terrorists of all hues and the staging ground for attacks across Pakistan. The opposition to retaking control of North Waziristan is mainly of two sorts: pragmatic and ideological. The pragmatists argue that blowback of retaking territory from TTP will be attacks in Pakistans urban centres and if public opinion and political elites arent ready for such a consequence, let the status quo prevail.
In other words, the network of TTP and its allies is well entrenched across Pakistan. And the Pakistani state will continue to appease the TTP and tolerate the massacre of its soldiers, policemen and citizens in Fata and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in order to keep big cities relatively safe.
On the ideological front flawed arguments are being propounded most vociferously by the PTI. It opposes the North Waziristan operation on the basis that the militant ideology and beheading brigade of TTP will vanish into thin air as soon as the US withdraws from Afghanistan. A secondary argument is that the military operation will not work since, despite superior force, the US failed to assert control over Vietnam or Afghanistan. That the US was a foreign occupation force while the Pakistani state would be reestablishing control over its own territory is simply ignored. It is further argued that just as military action is disagreeable in Karachi and Balochistan, it is disagreeable in North Waziristan.
Again, there is no appreciation that comparing Karachi or Balochistan with North Waziristan is comparing apples and oranges. Karachi is the victim of an internecine warfare between competing political parties over control for power and resources in the face of changing demographic realities. This can be resolved through the political process and a functional criminal justice system.
The grievance of Balochistan relates to its sense of being exploited and mistreated. It seeks equality, empowerment and control over its resources. The
problem is ethnic and the solution ought to be political; the matter can be resolved within the framework of our constitution.
The TTP, on the contrary, wishes to pursue its retrograde worldview inspired by its intolerant and violence-prone view of Islam through a new legal order inspired by its flawed understanding of the Shariah. In doing so it seeks to rely exclusively on cruelty and use of force. It wishes to assume control of the Pakistani state as a first step to be able to export this mission to the rest of the world. It is on the basis of this agenda that it has formed alliances with other religious militias across Pakistan. Where is the room for political settlement in any of this? Which of the TTPs long-term demands can be accommodated by the state within our constitutional framework through talks?
Does our political and military leadership not realise that everything that TTP and its allies stand for poses an existential threat to our state and society? And yet they are more consumed by extraneous considerations such as whether uprooting TTP from North Waziristan might incidentally benefit the Americans or if denying TTP the sanctuary from where it plans and launches human bombs and beheading squads might
be a ploy to delay elections. Is it not obvious to thinking minds in khakis and civvies that we are witnessing a crumbling of the state itself? Is this one of those nightmares where your body freezes in horror when danger approaches? Why are we not waking up from his horrid dream?
Email: sattar@post.harvard.edu
Our crumbling state - Babar Sattar
Our crumbling state
Babar Sattar
Saturday, October 20, 2012
From Print Edition
Legal eye
The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad.
At what point does loss of control over territory rise to a level that it becomes unacceptable for the state? Let us consider a few random events. A while back the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) slaughtered 11 soldiers of Pakistan Army, taped the massacre and released the gruesome video for public viewing. What is the impact of a harrowing event such as this on the morale of troops fighting for the Pakistani flag? Is the beheading of Pakistani soldiers at the hands of militants entrenched within our sovereign territory acceptable damage for our military high command and political elite? Is some larger national interest being served here that the simpletons amongst us cant fathom?
This past Monday, the TTP attacked a police check post on the Peshawar-Kohat road and killed a superintendent of police and six other officers of the police and FC. The attack reportedly lasted some three hours and the militants took away rocket launchers, Kalashnikovs and other weapons that they found at the post. But that wasnt all. They also severed the heads of the SP and the two FC officials and took them along as trophies. How did the state respond? It announced a bravery award for the SP. How long do we expect our soldiers and police officials to exhibit the resolve to confront ruthless terrorists and risk agonising deaths when the state itself is found dithering?
We have had fearless officers like Malik Saad and Sifwat Ghayur taken out by the TTP and the state did nothing. We have probably lost more than 500 police officers in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa alone over the last decade. A few days ago a brigadier of Pakistan Army, presently serving at the ISI, was abducted from Defense Housing Authority, Islamabad in broad daylight and his driver shot. The TTP is now also threatening the pro-Malala enemy media and has apparently prepared a hit list of journalists. These incidents are as heart wrenching as they are thought provoking.
The Pakistani state has been failing to uphold the citizens right to life and freedom from fear for a while. When it exhibits no determination to protect the life of those who are responsible for protecting the lives of everyone else, one wonders not just about the resolve of the state but also its capacity. If the perception that the state lacks the will and ability to fight terrorists becomes entrenched, wouldnt rationality demand those sitting on the fence to hedge their bets and acquiesce in the agenda of terrorists?
If the state is unable or unwilling to secure life and property, wouldnt people at some point, out of sheer necessity, switch sides and submit to the will of those capable of inflicting harm on them? Wouldnt those who have successfully annexed state territory and possess effective control, as well as the ability to enforce their orders, emerge as the de facto sovereigns? Isnt this what happened in Swat? And didnt we learn from our own bitter experience that it is impossible to appease terrorists or negotiate with them and that the longer you allow them to thrive the harder it is to dislodge them?
Lets go back to the basics of statecraft. When a citizen kills another it is murder. When the state executes a citizen in accordance with law, it is justice. When a soldier, policeman or citizen stakes their life in pursuit of declared national security or foreign policy, it is patriotism. When a citizen picks up arms to fight the state for its pursuit of stated foreign or national security policy objectives, it is treason. These are bright-line rules. You can disagree with state policy, its law and order strategies, excessive use of force or with its breach of due process and try to foster change. But you cannot declare war on the state due to disagreement.
The foundational requirements of a functional state in this context include (i) its monopoly over use of force within its territory, (ii) peoples acceptance of states monopoly over use of force (i.e. writ of the state), and (iii) states ability to enforce its writ and have in place a system of credible deterrence against those inclined to defy state authority. A functional state cannot share its monopoly over use of force with non-state actors or allow non-state actors to prevail upon state actors. And if it does, that marks the states descent into anarchy.
The Pakistani state has lost control over North Waziristan, which everyone agrees has become the den of terrorists of all hues and the staging ground for attacks across Pakistan. The opposition to retaking control of North Waziristan is mainly of two sorts: pragmatic and ideological. The pragmatists argue that blowback of retaking territory from TTP will be attacks in Pakistans urban centres and if public opinion and political elites arent ready for such a consequence, let the status quo prevail.
In other words, the network of TTP and its allies is well entrenched across Pakistan. And the Pakistani state will continue to appease the TTP and tolerate the massacre of its soldiers, policemen and citizens in Fata and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in order to keep big cities relatively safe.
On the ideological front flawed arguments are being propounded most vociferously by the PTI. It opposes the North Waziristan operation on the basis that the militant ideology and beheading brigade of TTP will vanish into thin air as soon as the US withdraws from Afghanistan. A secondary argument is that the military operation will not work since, despite superior force, the US failed to assert control over Vietnam or Afghanistan. That the US was a foreign occupation force while the Pakistani state would be reestablishing control over its own territory is simply ignored. It is further argued that just as military action is disagreeable in Karachi and Balochistan, it is disagreeable in North Waziristan.
Again, there is no appreciation that comparing Karachi or Balochistan with North Waziristan is comparing apples and oranges. Karachi is the victim of an internecine warfare between competing political parties over control for power and resources in the face of changing demographic realities. This can be resolved through the political process and a functional criminal justice system.
The grievance of Balochistan relates to its sense of being exploited and mistreated. It seeks equality, empowerment and control over its resources. The
problem is ethnic and the solution ought to be political; the matter can be resolved within the framework of our constitution.
The TTP, on the contrary, wishes to pursue its retrograde worldview inspired by its intolerant and violence-prone view of Islam through a new legal order inspired by its flawed understanding of the Shariah. In doing so it seeks to rely exclusively on cruelty and use of force. It wishes to assume control of the Pakistani state as a first step to be able to export this mission to the rest of the world. It is on the basis of this agenda that it has formed alliances with other religious militias across Pakistan. Where is the room for political settlement in any of this? Which of the TTPs long-term demands can be accommodated by the state within our constitutional framework through talks?
Does our political and military leadership not realise that everything that TTP and its allies stand for poses an existential threat to our state and society? And yet they are more consumed by extraneous considerations such as whether uprooting TTP from North Waziristan might incidentally benefit the Americans or if denying TTP the sanctuary from where it plans and launches human bombs and beheading squads might
be a ploy to delay elections. Is it not obvious to thinking minds in khakis and civvies that we are witnessing a crumbling of the state itself? Is this one of those nightmares where your body freezes in horror when danger approaches? Why are we not waking up from his horrid dream?
Email: sattar@post.harvard.edu
Our crumbling state - Babar Sattar
where did u get that figure? why only 20% why not 40% / 50% ?? any credible evidence. please update me.
what are the primary weapons of ttp?
what about rest 80% ? from CHina I guess? thats why govt is quite!
truthseer
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Sorry, classified documents!
JonAsad
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http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/67134_430309147030568_1641424800_n.jpg
these are the victims of drone strikes-
to all the preachers of drones strikes- let a drone hit their house some day-
these are the victims of drone strikes-
to all the preachers of drones strikes- let a drone hit their house some day-
FaujHistorian
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Horrible pictures. to support Jamati agenda. Horrible Horrilble.
Now you want to compare these with Malala. Fine.
We all know Malala was shot in the "SCHOOL VAN" on her way home from school. We know the time, and date and the street.
Now if you have an ounce of humanity, Please provide the following:
Give us the drone strike day,
Give us the location of the strike
Give us the names who died in the same strike.
And if you can't provide such details, please stop spreading the fing propaganda. We are sick and tired of Jih@di,.,
Enough!
Mav3rick
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With fellow citizens like you, who needs Indians or Americans as enemies!!
TTP claimed responsibility for attack on Malala, an over-hyped case over hundreds of children who were murdered in suicide attacks by the same TTP group that is denounced by the real Talibaan (freedom fighters fighting invading western forces in Afghanistan) and their supreme leader Mullah Omer!
As for the attack on Malala and the unimaginable extra attention given to the case worldwide, only anti-Pakistan entities gain from such planned activities. These activities fool stupid Pakistanis in to pressuring the Government to begin a military operation on their own land, to make their own people hostile towards the country and the Army.
EDIT: It is a well known fact that TTP is an anti-Pakistan organization that is trained, equipped, financed and supported by CIA/RAW and most likely MOSSAD & Afghan Intelligence as well.
somebozo
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What about years of neglect of tribal areas and letting the mullahs / AQ / Talibans roaming wildly in those regions?
And never mind Zia forced islamization policies letting the crazy mullahs lose.
And alien ideology which begin brain washing at young age with stories of 72 virgin is dangerous not only on regional scale but on a global one. Given the nuisance which is living in northern regions of Pakistan, it is only surprising that we have not come under wide scale international action like one happening in Somalia and Yemen.
SamantK
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You said it!
Mav3rick
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And those were the good old days, along came the US with her mistress NATO to wreak havoc in the neighborhood that has extension into half of Pakistan. The rest is, as they say, 'history' albeit with a twist as 'in making'. Unless you favor shoving your 'liberalism' down the throats of these tribals.
humanfirst
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That is the picture of primary school children killed in a car bomb attack by afghan taliban..You guys always post fake pictures..
Awesome
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Girl was shot by Maulana Fazlullah Group who are TTP associates.
Haqqani Network didn't shoot her.
Unfortunately we are engaged in a debate to whether to hate on Drones or Haqqani Network.
Maulana Fazlullah ko toh Allah mian ki gaye bana ke rakha hua hai.
Drones issue is separate - as its a foreign nation state, one with whom we have diplomatic relations with is firing missiles upon our citizens on our soil. This has to be dealt diplomatically first and then militarily. Either they stop, or we shoot them down.
Haqqani Network issue is separate - Its a non-violent towards Pak group that just occupies space and has till date shown no indication to fight Pakistan. They may be very bad people, but they aren't bad to us. This has to be dealt diplomatically first and then militarily, either they leave after 2015 or we make them leave.
TTP / Fazlullah issue is primary terrorism issue for us. This has to be dealt militarily and diplomatically together. Hunt them down, in Waziristan and Afghanistan but where they give up arms, give them a reduced sentence (no free pass to violent murderers).
Haqqani Network didn't shoot her.
Unfortunately we are engaged in a debate to whether to hate on Drones or Haqqani Network.
Maulana Fazlullah ko toh Allah mian ki gaye bana ke rakha hua hai.
Drones issue is separate - as its a foreign nation state, one with whom we have diplomatic relations with is firing missiles upon our citizens on our soil. This has to be dealt diplomatically first and then militarily. Either they stop, or we shoot them down.
Haqqani Network issue is separate - Its a non-violent towards Pak group that just occupies space and has till date shown no indication to fight Pakistan. They may be very bad people, but they aren't bad to us. This has to be dealt diplomatically first and then militarily, either they leave after 2015 or we make them leave.
TTP / Fazlullah issue is primary terrorism issue for us. This has to be dealt militarily and diplomatically together. Hunt them down, in Waziristan and Afghanistan but where they give up arms, give them a reduced sentence (no free pass to violent murderers).
somebozo
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Such actions have taken place in many parts of the world. One should read what Abdul Aziz did with the Ikhwan when they spiraled out of control. He called in British air strikes and bombed them to meat. We could have done the same thing, called in PAF on Taliban. Instead we switched sides and begin calling Taliban our strategic ally and started dreaming of Afghanistan as our satellite state. Very far fetched scenario, we wouldn't behave peacefully of Afghans started dreaming Pakistan as their satellite state.
The tribals will one day need to civlize or face extinction - this has been the fate of all people unwilling to keep up with the changing world. As population increases so do the risk..few hundred thousand people living in caves reading about 72 virgins and sucide bombings are harmless. But when they are few millions then rest assured someone is actually going to do that. Same has been our case in tribal areas.
The mullah & madrassah economy has been taking shape for several decades under the blind eye of Pak government, and as the population increased the situation spiraled out of control. And now we are faced with a wave of destructive attacks from an enemy loaded up on unlimited arsenal of weapons, ideology and most importantly man power. This is something Abdul Aziz realized early in the day. He needed the Ikhwan for his rapid success in the region but Ikhwan, numbering only few thousands still posed a long term threat to his ambitions. Once they refused to obey his orders, Abdul Aziz has no problem calling in air strikes and modern artillery to destroy the Ikhwans.
Same should have been applied to Talibans, once they refused to obey our orders and hand down the weapons it was government job to co-operate the with newly formed Afghan government and disband the Taliban - disarm or be extinct.
This is the same good taliban bad taliban debate we are facing. No armed group is good for the region. Period.
Haqqani, TTP or whatever - everyone has to disarm or else we will be engulfed into fire.
Instead of crying to Amreeka for drone strikes, we should look into the underlying factors of what nessicates these drone strikes. Years of our own negligence and inaction. The drones are just a last resort remedy to a cancer growing for several decades. Had we been taking care of of our society health there would be no chance of cancer occurring at first place.
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