Pakistanis becoming less Anti-Indian, but do Indians reciprocate?

[Gandhi G in da house]

Created and / or abetted by RAW.

Mukti Bahini was a terrorist organisation according to which international organisation or authority ? Help me identify please.

LTTE - Yes , I give you that up till only the late 1980s. We learnt our lesson and changed course unlike Pakistan.

Balochi and Sindhi separatists- No proof ever provided. Mr. Rehman Malik talked about providing proof 4-5 years ago. Now his government is gone and no proof has yet been given

 

[nastikan]

With more and more terrorist attacks happening in Pakistan, common Pakistanis will have less time to hate India and will be less inclined to support terrorism in general.

 

[Spring Onion]

Peace we all want but how will we achieve that peace? There is no magic wand, many Pakistan seem unenthusiastic about putting contentious issues on the back burner & proceeding with other matters like trade etc. Yet most Pakistanis also seem unable to come up with a coherent plane for peace (Musharraf-MMS plan excluded), one that might be acceptable to India. Pakistanis have been unwilling to answer the very important question of what Pakistan brings to the table as its part of the bargain (cessation of terrorism directed against India is not enough). Merely suggesting that India withdraw from Siachen, draw down in Kashmir etc won't cut it. What you will add to the relationship is also key to any future agreement.

Sorry its NOT who will bring anything to the table unless India brings something.

Tell us what India can bring to the table for talks?

Indians talk about trade only and when Pakistan facilitates that despite all odds the Indians had harmed Pakistani traders.

Indians harm Pakistani sports/ artists even writers all these are embassadors of peace NOT terrorism.

So the end point is Indians can keep burning fire of hate we dont care

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Shut down terrorists and we'll reciprocate

 

[Bang Galore]

I disagree with a lot of the above. However, we need to move forward. I just wish to hi-light something I have observed and that is pretty much what Mani Shankar Aiyar is also saying. Hence this thread.

Bottom line is that Indians have become proud, and Pakistanis are reactionary. This is what sustains the cycle of mistrust and hate.

I belong to a generation which grew up knowing that Pakistanis were better off than Indians is almost all spheres. That was before Indian government followed Pakistan's Nawaz Sharif government in derugulation. Pakistan faltered because of weak democratic institutions, while India surged ahead because of its more stable institutions. I used to be the most anti-Indian person among my friends. I have come to realize that peace is the most important and precious state. I do not want Pakistan to be over-whelmed by Indian economy, like what I saw in Bangladesh, but I want good relations with India on basis of parity and respect.

My transformation happened slowly and because my understanding of religion evolved to where I was able to put Jihad, peace, and issues relating to modern political thought in Islamic countries in a more proper context.

There is very little to disagree with anything you have said here, that is a reasonable reading of facts. However we are where we are & we must move forward from here. We do face a terrorism problem & I have come to believe that Pakistan may simply not be in a position to do much even if it wants to. Too many fissures have opened up within Pakistan & I can't see the GoP or the PA willing to open another line of confrontation with anti-India groups immediately. That being the case, it will only be a matter of time before another attack takes place. What then? What would you suggest is a reasonable way to obtain a better relationship? Go down the trade route?

Parity & respect are two different things. Respect yes, political parity possible but economics is its own master. Parity cannot be achieved there & it will reflect on overall strength comparisons whether one likes it or not. Btw what you have said has a corollary, how does the Indian viewpoint absorb the very same set of facts laid out by you & fail to see the opposite direction & not end up supporting a gradual divergence between the two countries.

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

With Pakistan there will always be a give and take relationship... you will get from Indians what you give to us.... give us love and respect.... we do the same... give us hate and we reciprocate appropriately.

For xample nowhere in Indian curriculum we teach Hate Pakistan.. on the other hand..Pakistani curriculum from the very grassroots says Hindu is Kafir... he deserves to be killed.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Stop all terrorism and you will immediately notice the difference in our behaviour.

Wish I could say "same to you". But we have progressed farther than that.

 

[Bang Galore]

Sorry its NOT who will bring anything to the table unless India brings something.

Tell us what India can bring to the table for talks?

Indians talk about trade only and when Pakistan facilitates that despite all odds the Indians had harmed Pakistani traders.

Indians harm Pakistani sports/ artists even writers all these are embassadors of peace NOT terrorism.

So the end point is Indians can keep burning fire of hate we dont care

Nobody cares, it doesn't affect our daily lives, does it? This is just a sounding board for what we could do even if we cared. In that direction, what reciprocation from India/Indians would you wish to see?....and while we are it, reciprocation for what exactly?

If both countries bring nothing to the talks, than equivalence has been achieved & the status quo country benefits. My point was on those Pakistan who want to see a solution for, say Siachen, in a particular manner; i.e. a withdrawal of Indian troops, peace park etc but fail to specify what Pakistan will offer in return. What is it that Pakistan is bringing to the table? ( not an accusation, merely a question. Maybe you could offer what you think is a reasonable idea.)

 

[Markus]

Wish I could say "same to you". But we have progressed farther than that.

India's involvement in Pakistan is nothing as compared to Pakistan's involvement in creating trouble in India.

Difficult for people on this side to ignore all those activities.

IMO, Pakistan's obsession with Kashmir has to end if relations have to move forward.

 

[Chak Bamu]

With Pakistan there will always be a give and take relationship... you will get from Indians what you give to us.... give us love and respect.... we do the same... give us hate and we reciprocate appropriately.

For xample nowhere in Indian curriculum we teach Hate Pakistan.. on the other hand..Pakistani curriculum from the very grassroots says Hindu is Kafir... he deserves to be killed.

Who told you that? References? I have gone through the curriculum myself during 70s and 80s. I can recall two examples which indirectly support perpetuation of enmity with India. One was a story (I wish they chuck it) of an Indian pilot with bloodlust on his mind. The other was an excerpt from a book by Naseem Hijazi (who is an important writer advocating resurgence) describing the battle of Panipat. Indian nationalists would have a problem with describing an event that routed marhatta power. But beyond that, we are not terribly concerned with India. Newspaper reporting does a much better job of indoctrination just as it does in India.

Buddy you are short on facts and long on rhetoric.

India's involvement in Pakistan is nothing as compared to Pakistan's involvement in creating trouble in India.

Difficult for people on this side to ignore all those activities.

IMO, Pakistan's obsession with Kashmir has to end if relations have to move forward.

Now on this, I can say "same to you". From our perspective India's obsession with Kashmir has to end.

 

[Spring Onion]

India's involvement in Pakistan is nothing as compared to Pakistan's involvement in creating trouble in India.

Difficult for people on this side to ignore all those activities.

IMO, Pakistan's obsession with Kashmir has to end if relations have to move forward.

We have nothing to do with Rapes in India

We have nothing to do with Moaists

We have nothing to do with IPL corruption

We have nothing to do with MMS appointment.

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

Who told you that? References? I have gone through the curriculum myself during 70s and 80s. I can recall two examples which indirectly support perpetuation of enmity with India. One was a story (I wish they chuck it) of an Indian pilot with bloodlust on his mind. The other was an excerpt from a book by Naseem Hijazi (who is an important writer advocating resurgence) describing the battle of Panipat. Indian nationalists would have a problem with describing an event that routed marhatta power. But beyond that, we are not terribly concerned with India. Newspaper reporting does a much better job of indoctrination just as it does in India.

Buddy you are short on facts and long on rhetoric.



Now on this, I can say "same to you". From our perspective India's obsession with Kashmir has to end.

School curricula:

‘Pakistan schools teach Hindu hatred’ | DAWN.COM

Adding some samples at your request:

Text No. 1
Class: 4
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 80-81

“Sikhs destroyed the Muslim towns from the river Sutlej to the river Jamna. A number of times the Sikhs crossed the river Jamna and looted and destroyed the settlements of the Muslims. They truned the mosques into their ‘Gurdawaras’, demolished the shrines of the Muslim saints and burnt religious schools and libraries.”

Authors: Dr Miss Ferozah Yasmeen, Dr Azhar Hamid, Mian Muhammad Javed Akhtar, Nasir-ur-Din Ghaznavi, Muhammad Zubair Hashmi, Bashir-ud-Din Malik and Qazi Ajjad Ahmed.

Comment (inside backcover): “The Punjab Texbook Board is your own
organization. It produces quality and cost effective textbooks for you.”

Class: 4
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 83

“The Muslims of Pakistan provided all the facilities to the Hindus and Sikhs who left for India. But the Hindus and Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, busses and railway trains. Therefore about 1 million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.” 21
Authors: Dr Miss Ferozah Yasmeen, Dr Azhar Hamid, Mian Muhammad Javed Akhtar, Nasir-ur-Din Ghaznavi, Muhammad Zubair Hashmi, Bashir-ud-Din Malik and Qazi Ajjad Ahmed.

Comment (inside backcover): “Approved by Federal Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan, Islamabad.”

Class: 4
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 84

“India invaded Lahore on the 6th of September, 1965 without any ultimatum. After 17 days, the Indian authorities laid down arms acknowledging the bravery and gallantry of the Pak Army and civilians.”

Authors: Dr Miss Ferozah Yasmeen, Dr Azhar Hamid, Mian Muhammad Javed Akhtar, Nasir-ur-Din Ghaznavi, Muhammad Zubair Hashmi, Bashir-ud-Din Malik and Qazi Ajjad Ahmed.

Comment (inside backcover): “Approved by Federal Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan, Islamabad.”

___________________________

Text No. 4
Class: 5
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 123

“When India was defeated in the war of 1965, she excited the Muslims of East Pakistan against the Muslims of West Pakistan. For this prupose, India sought
the help of those Hindus who lived in East Pakistan. Ultimately, India attacked East Pakistan in December 1971 and helped the East Pakistanis to sever their relations with West Pakistan. Thus East Pakistan was separated from West Pakistan. The East Pakistanis renamed their country Bangladesh. India immediately recognized Bangladesh as an independent soverign state.”

Authors: Dr Ferozah Yasmeen, Mrs Zarina Asharf, Bashir-ud-din Malik, Prof Mirza Munawwar and Mian Mohammed Javed.

Comment (inside frontcover): “To achieve a better standard of life, quality education playes a pivotal role. My Government is trying hard to provide this base (Ch Pervez Elahi, Chief Minister, Punjab.”

___________________________

Text No. 5
Class: 5
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 123
22

“India is our traditional enemy and we should always keep ourselves ready to defend out beloved country from Indian aggression.”

Authors: Dr Ferozah Yasmeen, Mrs Zarina Asharf, Bashir-ud-din Malik, Prof Mirza Munawwar and Mian Mohammed Javed.

Comment (inside frontcover): “As for curriculum development, a team of professional experts was assem,bled for writing of textbooks, which will prove helpful in achieving the quality of education (Ch Pervez Elahi, Chief Minister, Punjab.”

___________________________

Text No. 6
Class: 6
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 100

“The foundation of Hindu set up was based on injustice and cruelty”

Scripted & Translated by: Prof. Mian Muhammed Aslam, Prof. Muhammed Farooq Malik and Qazi Sajjad Ahmed.

Comment (inside frontcover): “Our curriculum in the past was not in concert with the requirements of modern times. I am pleased to note that the government has not only given importance to the sovereignty and security of the country, but also taken steps for the improvement of the quality of education and curriculum to bring it in tune with the latest standards (Message from General Pervez Musharraf).”

___________________________

Text No. 7
Class: 6
Subject: Social Studies
Pages: 63

“The religion has deep impact on the children in Bharat. The Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Christian children have their own separate identiy.”

Scripted & Translated by: Prof. Mian Muhammed Aslam, Prof. Muhammed Farooq Malik and Qazi Sajjad Ahmed.

Comment (inside frontcover): “It is a historical fact that the Muslims ruled the world for hundreds of years on the basis of the knowledge acquired by their intellectuals, philosophers and scientists (Message from General Pervez Musharraf).”

 

[Markus]

We have nothing to do with Rapes in India

We have nothing to do with Moaists

We have nothing to do with IPL corruption

We have nothing to do with MMS appointment.

Try writing this:

We have nothing to do with Kashmir.

 

[MST]

Alirght guys the morons can continue anti-Pakistan feelings sanoo ki. khud ko khwamakhwa mian halkan kiye day rahay hain yeh log.

Salman Khurshid ki statement ho to its all fault of Pakistan

If Ayar gives statement he becomes a Pakistani

if MMS wants good relations with Pakistan then he becomes a diaper clad toothless congressi for Indians

If Sonia Gandhi talks about invading Pakistan with cultural attacks then she becomes godess kali in the battle against Pakistan but if Sonia Gandhi keeps a mum over her party's soft statement viz a viz Pak relations then she becomes Italian waitress for mahan bharatis.

Madamji when did that happen.

OT Pakistanis should keep a safe distance from Mr Ayyar. He is an absolute dumb @ss.

 

[Bang Galore]

Now on this, I can say "same to you". From our perspective India's obsession with Kashmir has to end.

That would be the same if we are asking about the part you control. We mostly don't & honestly couldn't care less about it. However the part that we do have is going nowhere and it will go nowhere regardless of how much you obsess about it.