Pakistanis angry at Afghans for building fort on ridgeline between two countries

[Watani]

@Agnostic
The Northern Alliance is dominated by (ex) Mujahid's mainly and Mujahid's have only trusted Russia so far as both sides are communists, who have been against India. It have been the Pashtuns in the government who maintained their friendship with India. The reason why many Sikh's and Hindu's have lost their lives in Afghanistan is because of the Mujahidin, who killed thousands of Sikh's and Hindu's in Jalalabad only. Today even India fears Mujahid's because recently news came out that some Mujahid might have hidden somewhere in India and might plan to attack the country as well. And once again; Why would India invest so much in Afghanistan NOW if they wanted to harm us in the past? We have only encouraged their people and country and it if our country gets stable then India will possibly benefit most from it. And I appreciate every single person who has tried to help Afghanistan and therefore I thank even Pakistani's to contribute to Afghanistan when we needed it. I never criticized Pakistan's countribution and therefore I hope both countries get peace and get along which each other, just like all Muslims should.

And the problem between Afghan-Pak government then was that half of Pashtunkhwa territory was taken from Afghanistan illegally (I think by Britain firstly). The term Afghanistan literally means 'land of Pashtuns' and therefore a lot of Pashtuns still consider themselves as Afghans. And a lot of Pashtuns from Jalalabad have migrated to Peshawar ages ago and lived there, so originally Pashtuns were Afghans indeed. And Peshawar was only given choices out of India or Pakistan; Not Afghanistan and Afghanistan was what majority of Peshawari's wanted around that time. That's why many Afghans were mad too because they thought it was unfair every possible choice was given except Afghanistan or Pashtunistan, plus since the separation of Pashtuns Afghanistan had weakened very quickly and very roughly. If Pashtuns would still have been on our side then we wouldn't have suffered that much during the Russian war. And no I don't feel parted from them because I get along perfectly fine with both Pakistani's and Afghans and as I said before, I want peace for both countries and I hope civilians of both sides are happy with their country and Pashtuns contribute to their countries as much as they can; May it be Afghanistan, may it be Pakistan.

 

[Omar1984]

@Agnostic

And the problem between Afghan-Pak government then was that half of Pashtunkhwa territory was taken from Afghanistan illegally (I think by Britain firstly). The term Afghanistan literally means 'land of Pashtuns' and therefore a lot of Pashtuns still consider themselves as Afghans. And a lot of Pashtuns from Jalalabad have migrated to Peshawar ages ago and lived there, so originally Pashtuns were Afghans indeed. And Peshawar was only given choices out of India or Pakistan; Not Afghanistan and Afghanistan was what majority of Peshawari's wanted around that time. That's why many Afghans were mad too because they thought it was unfair every possible choice was given except Afghanistan or Pashtunistan, plus since the separation of Pashtuns Afghanistan had weakened very quickly and very roughly. If Pashtuns would still have been on our side then we wouldn't have suffered that much during the Russian war. And no I don't feel parted from them because I get along perfectly fine with both Pakistani's and Afghans and as I said before, I want peace for both countries and I hope civilians of both sides are happy with their country and Pashtuns contribute to their countries as much as they can; May it be Afghanistan, may it be Pakistan.

The Amir of Afghanistan at that time sold NWFP and FATA to the British. NWFP and FATA became part of British India, Afghanistan was not. During partition a referendum was held in all regions of British India. NWFP/FATA, Punjab, Sindh, and Balochistan chose Pakistan in that referendum. Kashmir was not given a referendum, hence the dispute, and thats why Azad Kashmir is not a province of Pakistan yet.

The partition was of British India. Afghanistan was not British India so why would we include Afghanistan in the referendum? You people were free of the British, we had to win our independence and build our country from the ground up.

And if you think all Pashtuns wanted to be part of Afghanistan, read about Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattak and Abdul Qayyum Khan who were both Pashtuns and both key figures in the Pakistan movement. Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattack even went to Afghanistan to persuade the Afghan government of a conferderation between Pakistan and Afghanistan, but that negotiation was not successful.

Pashtuns of Pakistan are not forced to be Pakistani, no one ever protested in NWFP and FATA against being part of Pakistan. You can ask Imran Khan, Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan, Shahid Afridi, and even the Pakistani Pashtuns in this forum.

 

[Watani]

^ Emir Abdur Rahman never sold the NWFP to Pakistan, a treaty was signed. E. A. Rahman couldn't read English around that time and the 'deal' wasn't in Dari or Pashto but the treaty was signed as a form of 'peace' (so called) between Afghanistan and neiboughering countries. NWFP was supposed to be with India till 1993, a century after the contract has expired, but instead it was given to Pakistan and THAT'S why Afghans were mad; They were lied to and made false promise to, plus when Pashtuns had to choose a country where they would like to be, Afghanistan wasn't given as an option. Just like Pakistan would like Kashmir to join them, exactly like that some Afghans ain't over NWFP yet. Which they should now according to me. I would like to refer you to the following links at the end of this message to get to know more about it and I will see if I can find other articles as well.

And I never said all Pashtuns wanted to be part of Afghanistan or all Pashtuns are forced to call themselves Pakistani's, I said majority Pashtuns THEN wanted to join Afghanistan, which option wasn't even given. But now, over a century later, a lot has been changed and NWFP is now in Pakistan and let the Pashtuns of Pakistan decide what they want and what they don't. And although I didn't want to mention this, but I know more than enough Pakistani Pashtuns who refer themselves as Afghans or either want an independent state. When I asked why they said on of the reason is because NWFP isn't (as should have been legally) given back to Afghanistan, plus when Pashtuns wanted to name NWFP Pashtunistan, they were refused that 'option'. They said if other ethnic's are allowed to name a state after their own ethnic (Baluchistan and etcetera) then so should be Pashtuns.

Many of my Waziri friends said back in Waziristan most people want independence and they want division and etcetera and I have told them whatever I just said here; Pashtuns of Afghanistan should now contribute as much as they can to Afghanistan and Pashtuns of Pakistan should contribute as much as they can to Pakistan, because that's their country NOW and Muslim countries shouldn't be divided even further. We should think of our present and future now, not past.


Durrand Line

Durrand Line 1

 

[Omar1984]

^ Emir Abdur Rahman never sold the NWFP to Pakistan, a treaty was signed. E. A. Rahman couldn't read English around that time and the 'deal' wasn't in Dari or Pashto but the treaty was signed as a form of 'peace' (so called) between Afghanistan and neiboughering countries.

The EMIR of Afghanistan then shouldnt have signed something he didnt understand. You had that deal with the British not with Pakistan, its the British who cheated you.

NWFP was supposed to be with India till 1993, a century after the contract has expired, but instead it was given to Pakistan and THAT'S why Afghans were mad;

NWFP chose Pakistan over India in a referendum during partition. To us people of NWFP mattered more than people of Afghanistan because Afghanistan didnt have to go through British rule like the people of NWFP had to go through.

They were lied to and made false promise to, plus when Pashtuns had to choose a country where they would like to be, Afghanistan wasn't given as an option.

Afghanistan was not British India. NWFP and the rest of what is now Pakistan was part of British India. Partition had to do with the partition of British India, only India and Pakistan were involved in this matter, Afghanistan never helped us, they didnt even help the people of NWFP fight the British, we had to win our freedom on our own.

Just like Pakistan would like Kashmir to join them, exactly like that some Afghans ain't over NWFP yet.

Kashmir was not given any kind of referendum and tahts why its disputed. Atleast the people of NWFP were given a referendum and Kashmir was a princely state of the British India empire it had to be given a referendum, Afghanistan was never part of British India empire. The partition was a partition of British India empire and each state had to be given a referendum to join either Pakistan and India. Both Pakistan and India was part of British India empire, Afghanistan wasn't so why would we include Afghanistan in the referendum when they were a free nation and never really helped us ever fight the British.

And I never said all Pashtuns wanted to be part of Afghanistan or all Pashtuns are forced to call themselves Pakistani's, I said majority Pashtuns THEN wanted to join Afghanistan, which option wasn't even given. But now, over a century later, a lot has been changed and NWFP is now in Pakistan and let the Pashtuns of Pakistan decide what they want and what they don't. And although I didn't want to mention this, but I know more than enough Pakistani Pashtuns who refer themselves as Afghans or either want an independent state. When I asked why they said on of the reason is because NWFP isn't (as should have been legally) given back to Afghanistan, plus when Pashtuns wanted to name NWFP Pashtunistan, they were refused that 'option'. They said if other ethnic's are allowed to name a state after their own ethnic (Baluchistan and etcetera) then so should be Pashtuns.

Many of my Waziri friends said back in Waziristan most people want independence and they want division and etcetera and I have told them whatever I just said here; Pashtuns of Afghanistan should now contribute as much as they can to Afghanistan and Pashtuns of Pakistan should contribute as much as they can to Pakistan, because that's their country NOW and Muslim countries shouldn't be divided even further. We should think of our present and future now, not past.


Durrand Line

Durrand Line 1

Then I have yet to see a protest in NWFP or FATA against being part of Pakistan. Ever since partition, there have been thousands of protest in Indian Occupied Kashmir against being part of India, why dont anyone in NWFP and FATA protest against being part of Pakistan ever if they so badly want to leave Pakistan for Afghanistan?

 

[Watani]

^ Looks like you didn't took a good look at the websites I attached, but anyway; Are you aware of the 'Great Game' in Central Asia after the second World War? Russia was probably the strongest country around that time and NWFP around that time was a very good and easy way to enter British India and it's sources. Britain was wary of Russian power and in order to make sure Russia doesn't reach British India, they signed a deal with Afghan Emir because that would have given Russia less opportunity to go further than Afghanistan. So basically Afghanistan had to choose between Russia or Britain and after many talks, also with British India, Afghanistan agreed to sign the treaty and NWFP was supposed to be with India till 1993. Afghanistan had to deal with Britain around that time but also Russia had started their tricks already, it was also believed Iran was trying to influence the Northern part of Afghanistan as well; Afghanistan now had more than one country to be wary of.

And about the referendum, so you have any idea how many Pashtuns were allowed to vote whether they wanted Pakistan or India, after Britain left? Not even a million people. As one of the members named WTF said already, places like Swat, Dir, Chitral and Amb and I believe some more weren't even given a referendum, only settled districts were given the referendum. And let me remind you that Pakistan got just over 50% of votes, so the difference wasn't even too much. Other areas even heavily boycotted against it and also were mad because independent Pashtunistan (or Afghanistan) weren't given as an option, you might have to read about the Bannu Declaration. So the land was supposed to be given back to Afghanistan after it was with India for a century, so that shouldn't even have been an option when Pakistan was independent. So the land is taken away from Afghanistan illegally because Afghanistan had signed the treaty for India, not for Pakistan.

And therefore after the independence of Pakistan, many leaders were fuming and kept saying it was illegal and tried to take back NWFP. They weren't mad at Pakistan, they were mad at Britain for doing something very illegal. And those leaders didn't necessary want Pashtuns of Pakistan to join them, they wanted the land back which was taken away by lies. And if you had read my previous posts clearly, I had already said that it's now been over six decades and a lot has changed, so it's obvious Pashtuns would like to stay in Pakistan. I was talking about the past that protests did find place and I told you part about my Waziri friends who keep saying they want independence and every single one of them has an side and opinion of their own. I don't see this Pashtunistan happening anyway so it's the best Pashtuns on both sides move on with their lives and their countries. There are a lot of things attached to this Durrand line and as I said I will post those other links as well when I find them. A lot has been going on about the Durrand line of which quiet some people are still unaware. You can also go through these links as well, for more clarity;


The Durrand Line

The Durrand Line 1

 

[muse]

Watani

Maybe a referendum should be held to allow the Hazara to decide if they want to be part of Iran, especially the herat area and maybe the turkoman should be allowed a referendum to be allowed choose if they want to affiliate with turkmanistan, and the uzbeks too should be allowed a referendum to evaluate whether they may want to afiliate with uzbekistan -- and well that leaves the tajik or farsiwan - I wonder if they would like to take their chance with Shiaah Iran or with Sunni Tajikistan

Goodness what a complicated world, Perhaps the best thing for Afghanistan in a stage it is in, that is to say barely crawling, to have peace among all Afghans - and to not start things they cannot finish.

Afghan cannot go on distorting history, cannot go on avoiding dealing with their internal problems by turning them into problems with their neighbors. Like them or not, the Pakistanis are not going anywhere, today, tomorrow and for the foreseeable future an Afghanistan that is at peace with it's closest neighbors is a Afghanistan that has a future.

 

[Watani]

^ Sorry to say but your comments about Hazara's and Uzbek's is absolutely rubbish. Hazara's are Turkic-Mongolian who invaded Afghanistan centuries back but got defeated and many of them stayed back in Afghanistan. Uzbek's came from Uzbekistan and Turkey as well and stayed in Afghanistan, plus Tajiks and Pashtuns of Afghanistan have always been on that land they are at right now. For thousands of years. None took any land from Hazara's, none took any land from Uzbek's and none took any land from Tajiks so I don't even understand how you can compare these situations? And nor were any of them lied to or betrayed at by anyone. And looks like nor have you read my posts clearly because even I said now we should focus on present and future and many Afghan politicians today are only concentrating on Afghanistan, thank God. And I am not determined NWFP to go back to Afghanistan either, because Afghanistan is in an total mess and any land which will join Afghanistan will land in the very same mess. I don't wish anyone else the same. I just hope both sides gain peace and live in peace and harmony in their country and forget about the past. But I guess the reason why still some Afghans and some Pakistani Pakhtoons moan about the NWFP is because the land still is illegally taken away from Afghanistan. I don't think Pakistan or Pakistani's would ever accept if India (for example) would have taken Pakistani land decades but never return it back, init?

 

[muse]

Watani

Real history is your so called Emir needed money to keep the tribal leaders on his side and he needed money to run his court -- the English offered to support him and in return delinated the Durand line.

Now Pakistan is a successor state to the Bristish Raj - you may want to renegotiate - why do you guys never suggest renegotiate? You guys always make silly "our land" BS, can you get your land the Iranian took or "your land" the Turkmen was ceded or the lands ceded to the Ruse?

You guys have a mentality problem, regardless of what you may think you are in the end you are the brigand mentality. Offer to negotiate, it's better than playing the victim. today more than 32 million Pahstun live in Pakistan, How many in Afghanistan? And if the Durand line should be moved, shouldn't it be moved West??

Not all the pointing at Pakistan will change the fact that the Pashtun has lost his own country to the farsiwan, a sad truth, but the truth anyway.

Yeah, an Afghanistan at peace with itself is a Afghnaistan at peace with it's closest neighbors and that gaurantees it a future.

 

[Watani]

^ Really? How come then that British Empire themselves admit it was a treaty and the land was NOT sold? Even Iran, who is only in favour of Shia's, have written about it and said it was a treaty, the land was NOT sold so why should it move to the West? Once again as I said I don't think Pakistan would have liked it if any other country would take their land, despite of how successful that 'land' would have been with the other country. Right? And Iran never took our land, don't forget Afghanistan and Iran used to share same land for quiet a while and it was Iran who gave the name of 'Khorasan'. When they decided to separate, Iranians took the land they always had been on and Afghanistan took the land they had always been on. Many Iranians still claim Herat is their land but Herati's themselves refuse it and even Herati's in politics haven't been in favour of joining Iran at all. Herati's themselves say just because they share same religion with Iran and same Farsi accent, that doesn't mean Iran can claim their land because that land has always been land of Afghanistan. That's one of the reasons why Iran is still trying to sweet-talk the Afghan Shia's in Iran by treating them well, and mistreating the Sunni's.

And my dear, I ain't pointing at Pakistan or blaming Pakistan here, I am pointing at the Durrand line and British Empire who (simply) lied and deceived. And for the very last time I would like to request you to PLEASE read my posts before criticising because even I admit the previous leaders should have concentrated on Afghanistan only and we should now accept the things at it is NOW. And before you claim anything to be true, please be VERY sure of it that it IS true indeed.

 

[muse]

Watani


I am not suggesting it was sold, I very much agree that it was a treaty - now the treaty has elasped but I want to ask you what if Pakistan disregards the treaty, after all it was not a treaty with Pakistan - exactly what would Afghanistan option be?

Negotiation or war? Can The Afghans really ever afford war with Pakistan? That leaves what? negotiation? So you ask why move the libe West? Well it would help unite the larger pashtun population of Pakistan with their smaller number cousins to the West.

Now what if the Pakistani offers that a better border would be to the West of Nuristan, running through Wadak, slightly east of Ghazni and West of paktika, while leaving the southern reaches as they are presently delineated??

When was the last time you were in Afghanistan?

Now none of this has to happen, but if the Afghan imagines brigandry will work, well, it's a new time, a new chance, a new opportunity to create an Afghanistan whose independence is gauranteed by it's people and those closest to them.

 

[Watani]

^ Treaty was indeed not with Pakistan and once again none's problem is with Pakistan, but something that is illegal will remain illegal. Whether anyone regards it or disregards it, the land remains illegal. The time of the treaty has passed but the land still isn't given back as it was promised. And who said Afghanistan wants war with Pakistan? Of course negotiation is best way and that's what Karzai is doing now and that's what previous leaders have done as well, but the negotiation have always been a fail. And what do you mean by the Pakistani border through Nurestan and etcetera? I didn't get that part. And Afghanistan is independent and always have been and as I said before, the leaders now know that they should solely concentrate on what's going on in Afghanistan.

I even have Afghan and Pakistani Pashtun friends who are in favour of Pashtunistan and some Pakistani Pashtuns who don't want to join Afghanistan but want to have an independent Pashtunistan state of their own. Now as I said I don't see that happening and nor is that an smart option because all areas of Pakistan need each other. Just like that while ago some Afghans were thinking of separation between North and South but the plans failed because they realised they can't go all the way without each other. That's why I keep saying Muslim countries should stay united, not be divided even further for smallest matters. And you also said Tajiks have taken over Pashtun-land which absolutely wrong. Tajiks have been in those areas since thousands of years, it were the Uzbeks and Hazara's who invaded Afghanistan.

 

[muse]

The time of the treaty has passed but the land still isn't given back as it was promised.

Brother Watani, no problem, the treaty was with England, go get it from the English

And what do you mean by the Pakistani border through Nurestan and etcetera?

I was pointing out that those making claims should not imagine that they exclusively can make claims - it's not reality

And Afghanistan is independent and always have been

Yeah, Ok, sure. Watani, no Pakistani is a enemy of Afghanistan, especially of the Pashtun but please be real with us, if they allow the lingering suspicion of brigandry, they will have only yourselves to blame for what happens.

many Pakistanis listen with interest to the number of radio stations transmitting in Afghanistan, especially interesting is the venom (Zahr) that is spewed upon Pakistan, everyday, like a religious obligation, in the end Afghans may find that it is too late for them to be the kind of neighbors that they need to be - I don't mean should be - I mean they need to be.

 

[pak-marine]

Pak - Warrior
your post is full of sh*t and you should be ashamed of talking such crap ... ! MODS please ban this racist thug

 

[Watani]

^ Who is Pak Warrior?


@Muse
You really don't get this treaty thing, do you? And are you saying that the Durrand line and all the article links I gave are imaginary? Or am I getting it wrong? I still didn't get that part. Just like no Pakistani is enemy with Afghans, same-wise no Afghan is enemy of Pakistan. You should know how many Afghans I know that are married with Pakistani's, how many Afghans got Pakistani friends and how many Pakistani friends I got myself. But it's our government who keeps making mistakes after mistakes and influenced by our governments, Pakistani and Afghans are starting to dislike each other. That's the reason I don't talk about politics with my Pakistani friends any more, because in the past it has caused troubles. It's great to see Swat has been cleared from Taliban now and let's hope it vanishes from both Pakistan and Afghanistan very soon.

 

[muse]

Watani


I know so many many Afghan who are mor e Pakistani than I am in the sense that they Pakistan inside and out, they have lived there and grown up there, they were born there -- But trust me there are also enemies who promote emnity - pay attention to those radio broadcasts, you will see what I mean.

When was the last time you were in Afghanistan.