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Pakistanis angry at Afghans for building fort on ridgeline between two countries

its one thing to claim the border should be fenced, but would you be willing to mind your damn business and stay focused on your border?

some of the comments on this forum are too funny. you pakistanis are acting with arrogance and a sense of superiority, funny considering we Afghans have contributed to your culture and history.

the only difference between Indians and Pakistanis are what Afghans- Turks, Persians and Pashtuns- have contributed

you would figure the son would show more respect to its father

Funny how you ask for respect and claim we are being arrogant, but then you end up claiming Afghanistan is Pakistan's father :rolleyes:

This 'father' cannot even feed or defend himself, how did he raise a son? :rolleyes:
 
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its one thing to claim the border should be fenced, but would you be willing to mind your damn business and stay focused on your border?

Wait til the NATO is gone Pak will tell u whose borders are they !!

some of the comments on this forum are too funny. you pakistanis are acting with arrogance and a sense of superiority, funny considering we Afghans have contributed to your culture and history.

Y we had enough of your contributed culture of drug peddling and AK 47's ....


the only difference between Indians and Pakistanis are what Afghans- Turks, Persians and Pashtuns- have contributed

dont bring in Pushtoons and inflame things here Pushtoons are loyal to Pakistan and Pakistanis only ... its about Afghanistan .. what u have contributed is we have all over our country ! a lot of guns and drugs! now u have few thousand nato troops "potential customers - kindly contribute to them >

you would figure the son would show more respect to its father
and this one in Urdu for you " Tattay jitnay baray ho jaey rehtay neechay hi hain " translate this and you will figure out how much respect u have.
 
Afghanistan should simply make a Fort on their side of the border and save us all from further tension, simple as that. The have enough land on their side of the border and they could quite easily put a Fort on their side of the border, and I doubt Pakistan would raise objections to it.

Kabul is in no position to be dictating terms to Pakistan.


Here is the original story from Washington post and it clearly says that the fort is 3-4 km into Afghan border.

washingtonpost.com



But they quickly realized that the rugged terrain, poor Afghan roads and a shortage of U.S. helicopters made frequent visits impossible. "On the map, the border looks like it's only three or four kilometers away," Dempsey said. "The reality is that it is a major operation for us just to get to there."



and


"I am not sure why the [Pakistanis] are even here, except to stick a thumb in the eye of the Afghans," said Maj. Jason Dempsey, the No. 3 officer in the U.S. battalion on the border.
 
Regardless, what would the Yanks do if we bombed that fort tomorrow?

Its not like they aren't aware of the border tensions and how provocative that particular Afghan action is.


Considering that the Yanks are sitting in the fort , I can bet a 100 bucks there will be hell to pay.

Actually you should read the original Washington Post story on which the Pak newspaper story is based on. It is a "firing across the border" issue, not a border dispute. The fort is claimed to be well inside Afghan territory.

Anyway, I don't think this is one of the disputed Durand line areas - the Torkham border crossing is right here and if you look it up on Google Maps you can see that it is flush against the Durand line.
Torkham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Before I say anything I would like to request Members here to please refer us as Afghans or Afghanistani's as Afghani is the Afghan (money) currency and I don't think anyone here would like it either if I refer them as their country's currency.

First of all the, the Pakistani government should stop blaming other countries for everything and accept their own shortcomings. It's Zardari himself who travels around to collect money for the displaced people in NWFP, but where is the money? It's obvious Zardari takes the money to himself and surely he might have some kind of involvement in all this trouble in Pakistan as well. When Swat people got displaced then none more than Afghans back home felt angry and bad for the situation because Afghans themselves were living under Taliban regime for nearly a decade, they ain't that stone hearted to wish the same misery for anyone else. Plus look at the situation Afghanistan is in, where they need every penny they got to rebuild their country and every weapon they got to protect their country. You really think for Afghans and Afghanistan it's more important to destabilize other countries instead of stabilizing their own country? Think again.

I have met many Pakistani's who said Afghanistan and India were only friends so they can destabilize Pakistan. Then first of all, Afghanistan has got better things to do than destabilize other countries because our own country is in a mess. Secondly, India-Afghan friendship is nearly an century old, when Pakistan wasn't independent yet. Today India is doing a lot in Afghanistan and have helped Afghanistan on educational level plus with computer work, so that Afghans in Afghanistan can bring forward technical work and they wouldn't need foreigners for that. One the Pakistani's even said Pakistan did Afghanistan a favour by sending Taliban as they beat Russians, while it was Mujahideen who beat the Russians. Not Taliban. Plus just like Kashmiri's love both side of Kashmir as both parts are their home, exactly like that Afghans love and live in Peshawar because before Pakistan's independence Peshawar was with Afghanistan.

Afghanistan won't benefit from any disaster from it's neighbouring countries, because even today Baitullah Mehsud is sheltering Afghan orphaned kids in Waziristan and training them as Jihadi's. It's only Afghanistan's loss if Pakistan get's destabilized because Afghanistan will lose only more lives like that. And after three decades of war Afghans want peace and that can only happen if Afghan lives get saved, not Pakistani lives get taken. No Afghan hates Pakistan as an nation or Pakistani people, but their issue is with the Pakistani government which is even deceiving Pakistani people today. Afghanistan is a country with thousands of years of history and no country till the day of today has managed to occupy it, and therefore some countries might try anyway to occupy the country now, if not in the past. So I would just like to request you guys to please take a look at Afghanistan's situation first and then blame us for whatever, because Afghanistan is right now fighting for peace. Not more war and more enmity.
 
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Somewhat Afghans let down Pashtuns but Pashtuns never disowned Afghans. Its very hard to draw a line between Pashtun and Afghans. First Afghans need to figure out what they want and who they want. As far as Afghans has trouble with Pakistani govt, its totally non-sense rhetoric. When 97 percent of world opium and drugs supply comes from Afghanistan . Dirty weapons come from their.So obviously problem lies in Afghanistan. Afghan govt has no resources to correct these social problems,which is hurting neighboring countries mainly Pakistan and Iran. Biggest problem of unrest which non Afghan ever point out Indian using Afghan land for insurgency inside Pakistan.Basically Afghanistan is land of trouble for its neighbors, its bitter truth. Plus govt of Pakistan is democratically elected govt. Good or bad but democratic govt. And Afghanistan is naturally accessible through Pakistan.
 
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^ So you mean to say Afghans hate Pashtuns of Pakistan? Because that's a wrong statement. Yes, it's true that Tajiks, Uzbek's and Hazara's don't want unity with Pakistani Pashtuns but Afghan Pashtuns love Pakistani Pashtuns and treat them as one of their own people. Any Pashtun is welcome in Afghanistan as many Afghans believe Afghanistan is home of every Pashtun. And do you by the way know how Taliban came to power in Afghanistan and who was financially helping them? And how can weapons come from Afghanistan while Afghanistan doesn't even have money for weapons? Isn't it obvious someone has 'provided' them the weapons?
 
No i never said Afghan hate Pakistani pashtun. But Afghans always draw a line between Afghans and pashtuns. As far as Afghan only have respect for Pakistani Pashtun, that's anther wrong concept, when Afghan-Soviet war broke out, all provinces of Pakistan provide refuge to Afghans. Contribution doesn't go to only one ethnic group.
 
^ No no, Afghans love Pakistani Pashtuns because all Pashtuns used to be Afghans before Pakistan's independence. And Afghan Pashtuns have no problem with other Pakistani people at all, once again. There are some ethnic issues in Afghanistan and it's the other ethnics which doesn't want Pashtuns on both side to unite because they are afraid they will lose their rights if Pashtuns become more powerful. And as far as I know at least 90% of Afghan refugees have been living in NWFP and those who have been to other parts told me they had very bad experience there. If you ask Afghans about their experience in Pakistan than majority will say they only felt safe in NWFP or only were treated well in NWFP; Including my relatives. But that's their personal experience which should be parted from politics. And what I also don't understand is if Afghan people are truly to be blamed for heroin and opium, then how come no Afghan is profiting from the selling of opium and heroin? It's fairly possible USA is profiting from finding heroin and opium in the country and then sell it to other countries, but Afghans themselves aren't even aware of how much opium is to be found in Afghanistan.
 
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Before I say anything I would like to request Members here to please refer us as Afghans or Afghanistani's as Afghani is the Afghan (money) currency and I don't think anyone here would like it either if I refer them as their country's currency.

First of all the, the Pakistani government should stop blaming other countries for everything and accept their own shortcomings. It's Zardari himself who travels around to collect money for the displaced people in NWFP, but where is the money? It's obvious Zardari takes the money to himself and surely he might have some kind of involvement in all this trouble in Pakistan as well. When Swat people got displaced then none more than Afghans back home felt angry and bad for the situation because Afghans themselves were living under Taliban regime for nearly a decade, they ain't that stone hearted to wish the same misery for anyone else. Plus look at the situation Afghanistan is in, where they need every penny they got to rebuild their country and every weapon they got to protect their country. You really think for Afghans and Afghanistan it's more important to destabilize other countries instead of stabilizing their own country? Think again.

I have met many Pakistani's who said Afghanistan and India were only friends so they can destabilize Pakistan. Then first of all, Afghanistan has got better things to do than destabilize other countries because our own country is in a mess. Secondly, India-Afghan friendship is nearly an century old, when Pakistan wasn't independent yet. Today India is doing a lot in Afghanistan and have helped Afghanistan on educational level plus with computer work, so that Afghans in Afghanistan can bring forward technical work and they wouldn't need foreigners for that. One the Pakistani's even said Pakistan did Afghanistan a favour by sending Taliban as they beat Russians, while it was Mujahideen who beat the Russians. Not Taliban. Plus just like Kashmiri's love both side of Kashmir as both parts are their home, exactly like that Afghans love and live in Peshawar because before Pakistan's independence Peshawar was with Afghanistan.

Afghanistan won't benefit from any disaster from it's neighbouring countries, because even today Baitullah Mehsud is sheltering Afghan orphaned kids in Waziristan and training them as Jihadi's. It's only Afghanistan's loss if Pakistan get's destabilized because Afghanistan will lose only more lives like that. And after three decades of war Afghans want peace and that can only happen if Afghan lives get saved, not Pakistani lives get taken. No Afghan hates Pakistan as an nation or Pakistani people, but their issue is with the Pakistani government which is even deceiving Pakistani people today. Afghanistan is a country with thousands of years of history and no country till the day of today has managed to occupy it, and therefore some countries might try anyway to occupy the country now, if not in the past. So I would just like to request you guys to please take a look at Afghanistan's situation first and then blame us for whatever, because Afghanistan is right now fighting for peace. Not more war and more enmity.
1. "First of all the, the Pakistani government should stop blaming other countries for everything and accept their own shortcomings. "

It is a little hard to simply forget history - Afghanistan refused to accept Pakistan at independence, subsequently supported failed separatist movements in both Baluchistan and FATA/NWFP, and carried out terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities.

In addition, many key posts in the Afghan government after the US invasion (intelligence, defence, interior) have ben in the hands of Northern Alliance warlords or their cronies, and while the Taliban were bad, the NA were no saints either and received plenty of assistance from India, among other countries. So there are valid reasons to be vary of Afghanistan, and especially the Afghan-India nexus.

2. "It's Zardari himself who travels around to collect money for the displaced people in NWFP, but where is the money? It's obvious Zardari takes the money to himself and surely he might have some kind of involvement in all this trouble in Pakistan as well. "

How do you know Zardari is taking the money for himself? Certainly there will be corruption and mismanagement in a relief effort of this size in a developing country, but your accusation is unsubstantiated and in bad taste.

3. "You really think for Afghans and Afghanistan it's more important to destabilize other countries instead of stabilizing their own country?''

I'll believe that when the GoA officially and formally accepts the Durand as the international border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

4. "Secondly, India-Afghan friendship is nearly an century old, when Pakistan wasn't independent yet."

India was not independent before 1947 either (1947 is the year of their independence as well), so how could Afghanistan have a relationship going back hundreds of years with a country that did not exist then?

You had a relationship with the British colony of India, and that realtionship included the people and territories that comprise Pakistan and the modern Indian nation state.

Pakistanis did not sprout out of the earth on the 14th of August 1947, our ancestors have inhabited these lands going back thousands of years to the Mehrgarh, Indus and Gandhara civilizations - some of which also overlapped significant parts of Afghanistan. And the people of what are today Afghanistan and Pakistan have had cultural, civilizational and trade relationships for thousands of years, and even been part of the same empires at times.

5. "Plus just like Kashmiri's love both side of Kashmir as both parts are their home, exactly like that Afghans love and live in Peshawar because before Pakistan's independence Peshawar was with Afghanistan."

Peshawar, the NWFP and FATA were not part of Afghanistan before Pakistan's independence, they were a part of British India, under the Durand agreement. Afghanistan had officially agreed to forsake any and all claims to that territory under that agreement.

All that said, I appreciate your sentiments for peace and friendship between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and believe they are sincere. The hostility that many/some Pakistanis display towards Afghanistan is a result of the issues I mentioned, and the GoA accepting the finality of the Durand would go a long way in alleviating the suspicions harbored by Pakistanis with regards to Afghan intentions towards Pakistan.

Welcome to the forum.
 
Considering that the Yanks are sitting in the fort , I can bet a 100 bucks there will be hell to pay.

We could always claim they we received fire from the fort (plenty of skirmishes between the Afghans and FC along that border), and bombed them in self defense - oops, thats a page out of the Yank play book.;)

My argument of bombing the fort was based on the presumption that it would be primarily manned by the Afghans, or the Yanks woudl have left Afghanistan by then.

However ...
Actually you should read the original Washington Post story on which the Pak newspaper story is based on. It is a "firing across the border" issue, not a border dispute. The fort is claimed to be well inside Afghan territory.

Anyway, I don't think this is one of the disputed Durand line areas - the Torkham border crossing is right here and if you look it up on Google Maps you can see that it is flush against the Durand line.
Torkham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Point taken - I cannot confirm whether the fort is in violation of the Durand as Pakistan interprets it or not from the information at hand., so I'll hold off on the 'bombing the fort' advice till such time as the situation is clearer.;)
 
Afghanistan had engaged in cross-border attacks into Bajaur, Pakistan in an unsuccessful attempt to manipulate events in that area as far back as 1960.

Since the creation of Pakistan, Afghanistan has tried relentlessly to press the Pushtunistan issue. Afghan President Mohammed Daoud Khan tried using a propaganda war as well as military force but the Afghan Army was eventually routed by the Pakistan military.[5] This situation exacerbated demographic tensions over the Durand Line which divided Pushtun tribes between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Afghanistan?Pakistan Skirmishes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AM, you forgot to mention the invasion of Tribal areas from Afghanistan Forces back in 60's.FC with a couple of F86 Sabre pushed Afghanistan fighters back in Afghanistan.
 
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@Agnostic
First of all, I keep hearing that Afghanistan government disliked Pakistan since it's independence and kept invading Pakistan, but why can't I find any evidence about it? I know many people who are very familiar with politics and my aunt's husbands really like Pakistan and Pakistani's and were born there, but despite of their love for Pakistan they say it's rubbish Afghanistan ever tried to invade Pakistan or 'disown' Pakistani's. It's possibly another political game to divide Afghans and Pakistani's from each other, as we all know that with the day Muslims are getting divided more and more. And majority of Afghans themselves are against the Northern Alliance as they are only helping the North part of Afghanistan, NOT Southern part. And about Zardari, Pakistani's themselves around me curse at Zardari and some have family in Swat who are still displaced and from little to no person is provided any help by Zardari, coming from Pakistani's themselves.

And about the Durand line, many Afghan Pashtuns wanted to unite with Pakistani Pashtuns and around that time even Pakistani Pashtuns wanted that. They were having discussions and especially Pashtuns in Waziristan was supporting the idea of Greater Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. I personally don't necessarily want Pashtuns from Pakistan to be united with Afghanistan, I just want peace in both countries and hope Pashtuns on both side manage to bring peace into their countries Pakistan and Afghanistan. And once again, India has got NOTHING to do with the Russian-Afghan war and nor were there any evidences against them. It were in fact the Mujahid and Taliban who treated Hindu's and Sikh's very bad in Afghanistan and Mujahid later got support from Russia. So how is India helping in destabilizing in Afghanistan anyway?

Plus if India really was interested in destabilizing Afghanistan before, then why the hell are they investing millions now? It's possible Pakistan is wary of India but that doesn't mean Pakistani government should blame Afghanistan alongside because those two countries have good connections and relationship. It's only India's benefit if Afghanistan get's stabilized because Afghans are very interested in India and those two countries can do good business in future. And Peshawar HAS been part of Afghanistan and many Afghans were on that side of the border. Many Afghans felt sad in losing so many Afghans to the British Empire and majority Afghans never agreed to sacrifice Peshawar; It were other ethnics who didn't want more Pashtuns in Afghanistan and therefore didn't care about Peshawar. And I would request you guys to please provide SOLID links to whatever claim you guys make or whatever you guys claim to be TRUE because some things absolutely amaze me here.

I just want peace in both countries because it's of no benefit for Pakistan if Afghanistan get's worse and it's of no benefit for Afghanistan either if Pakistan get's more in trouble. We guys are all Muslims and human beings and we shouldn't be fooled of what our governments claim because nowadays pretty much everyone cares about money in politics. Not their country or people.
 
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First of all, I keep hearing that Afghanistan government disliked Pakistan since it's independence and kept invading Pakistan, but why can't I find any evidence about it?

Are you serious? Do a google and read some books.

And once again, India has got NOTHING to do with the Russian-Afghan war and nor were there any evidences against them.
I didn't refer to the Soviet occupation, I referred to Indian support for the Northern Alliance warlords as a proxy against Pakistan/Pakistan supported groups during the post-Soviet Afghan civil war.

And while you talk about the millions India has invested, don't forget that Pakistan has also provided over 300 million USD so far in assistance to Afghanistan, along with being a major trading partner.

And Peshawar HAS been part of Afghanistan and many Afghans were on that side of the border.

Peshawar has been part of many empires, some that had a seat of power in Afghanistan, as have other regions of what is now Pakistan. You cannot simply pick and choose a particular area and say 'well that used to be part of Afghanistan' and these people are Afghans.

They are not Afghans, they are primarily Pashtun and they chose Pakistan in a referendum in 1947. If you feel 'separated' from them, then join the Pakistani Federation.

And I am not sure what links you want - everything mentioned so far is fact. What exactly are you contesting?
 
A
They are not Afghans, they are primarily Pashtun and they chose Pakistan in a referendum in 1947. If you feel 'separated' from them, then join the Pakistani Federation.

First of all let me add the disclaimer that I know nothing much about what the people of NWFP/FATA or other areas actually want. But your statement is not entirely correct.

Amb, Bahawalpur, Chitral, Dir, Kalat, Khairpur, Kharan, Lasbela, Makran and Swat states signed instruments of accession to Pakistan . They did not have a referendum. I believe Peshawar had a "Loya Jirga" though I am not sure.

An option to join Afghanistan was not offered in the referendum where it was given - it was only India or Pakistan. So given that choice it might have very different results.

And Afghanistan did dispute all of this even in 1947.
 

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