Pakistani Nationalism - contradictions?

[JohnWick]

Useless thread.

 

[Imad.Khan]

And how this carving out is working for them ? Name the countries in the region which are not fighting outside and within and are being cotrolled through unlimited wealth otherwise are bound to disintegrate as there is no nationality ... Tell me how qatari is associated with Qatar only if he is poor too ? Take all the wealth from these carve out state ,,, will they be able to survive peacefully ?

Well these states were carved up for the benefit of the British and French, they didn't really care about the Arabs. Even if we take what you stated in your post, a Qatari or an Iraqi or Saudis are still all ethically Arabs and Muslims, take away their wealth and they will be at each other's throats in no time, which proves that single ethnic and religion is still not a good enough reason for being a nation.

 

[The Accountant]

Well these states were carved up for the benefit of the British and French, they didn't really care about the Arabs. Even if we take what you stated in your post, a Qatari or an Iraqi or Saudis are still all ethically Arabs and Muslims, take away their wealth and they will be at each other's throats in no time, which proves that single ethnic and religion is still not a good enough reason for being a nation.

Agreed but in case of Pakistan it is the only reason and the only justification to join us ... Without this cause we will be disintegrated as there is no Pakistani nationality other than Muslims of sub-continent

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Okay people. Have a look at this map below. It shows the 50 odd Muslim majority countries in the world. That is about quarter of the globe and over 1.8 billion Muslims.There are huge number of Muslim minorities in most countries of the world but for simplicity let us just stick with the Muslim majority countries which number about fifty.

As you can see the 50 Muslim majority countries are coloured green and cover almost every continent and almost all races of man. Pakistan is just one of them. Yes Pakistan is just one of 50.

If Pakistan nationalism is primarily based around Islam can anybody explain to me it differantiates from 50 other countries? How can one state represent Muslims when they number 1.8 billion and are spread in 50 countries?

Can people see the contradiction in the yellow patch [Pakistan] trying to be the contractor for all 50 Muslim countries? And trying to define it's nationalism around something that is spread in 50 countries? How does that work? Can the tiny yellow patch own a identity as it's own that actually belongs to 50 green patches?

In short how can a identity owned by 50 be claimed exclusively by one?

@OsmanAli98 @Nilgiri @MultaniGuy etc

Pakistan was not made as a country for Muslims, but more specifically, for Muslims from British India. That is our identity. Hence why have so many migrants from what is now the Republic of India, and people belonging to completely different ethnicities/races.

If you want an ethnic/cultural Pakistani identity, all you can say is that we are the people who inhabit the crossroads between Central Asia, the Middle East and India. That many people have migrated to our land and assimilated into it. That we are the people of the Indus.

But to not emphasise our Muslim identity is to spit on the faces of Jinnah, Ahmed Khan, Iqbal, and everyone else who helped create this nation. You don't have to be the most religious person on earth, but you have to believe that Muslims as a whole are distinct from other communities in India. This shouldn't be too hard to swallow since it's pretty obvious.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Okay people. Have a look at this map below. It shows the 50 odd Muslim majority countries in the world. That is about quarter of the globe and over 1.8 billion Muslims.There are huge number of Muslim minorities in most countries of the world but for simplicity let us just stick with the Muslim majority countries which number about fifty.

As you can see the 50 Muslim majority countries are coloured green and cover almost every continent and almost all races of man. Pakistan is just one of them. Yes Pakistan is just one of 50.

If Pakistan nationalism is primarily based around Islam can anybody explain to me it differantiates from 50 other countries? How can one state represent Muslims when they number 1.8 billion and are spread in 50 countries?

Can people see the contradiction in the yellow patch [Pakistan] trying to be the contractor for all 50 Muslim countries? And trying to define it's nationalism around something that is spread in 50 countries? How does that work? Can the tiny yellow patch own a identity as it's own that actually belongs to 50 green patches?

In short how can a identity owned by 50 be claimed exclusively by one?

@OsmanAli98 @Nilgiri @MultaniGuy etc

The problem is this one country trying to be 50 throws all sort of contradictions and conundrum that can't easily be solved. How do you run a one state but then hang a identity of 50 on your shoulders? It's like having one person but walks around carrying the minds of 50 people?

A good example of this conundrum is Uighur Muslims. If Pakistan is all about Muslims then surely it ought to be taking action against China instead of cozying up as 'Iron brother'. And in Islam thee is only one brotherhood and that is the Islamic Ummah. There is only Dar al Islam. Dar al Harb. There is only one definition or category of Muslims. That is 'Muslims'.

So how does one carry the weight of 50?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/for-china-islam-is-a-mental-illness-that-needs-to-be-cured.589175/

Brother that,s was suppose to happen because Jinnah left us too early and this country was at the mercy of dictators,feudal lords and religious zealots.Jinnah died before setting up a country,s foundation for true direction,constitution and political vision.
I hope one day the religious zealots will understand how the modern diplomatic relations work.National interests always come first and define the foreign policy rather than religious emotions and hypocrisy.
And only that tiny yellow patch introduced laws like blasphemy laws and hudood ordinance which shows are very different kind of zia made muslims.
A person is defined by his nation not his religion.And sometimes also by his race but this is getting less common due to immigration these days.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Bingo. This is always conveniently overlooked.

Uh no. Balochistan and KPK have been associated with Greater Iran/Afghanistan, but not Central Asia. Even Afghanistan is considered (with the exception of it's northern territories) part of South Asia.

This narrative of Afghans being Central Asian is just a sloppy attempt on their end to distance themselves from the rest of us because some of them have quite a silly superiority complex.

West Pakistan has never been an independent government in history

Is that a joke? IVC, the Rai dynasty, Indo-Scythians, Indo-Parthians, etc all revolved around what is now Pakistan. Just because we managed to conquer large portions of our neighbours doesn't mean these empires suddenly don't represent a historical version of Pakistan.

Yes but history shows India truly had native empires unlike Pakistan.

Almost all the empires you listed were not native to India. I can name plenty of empires/dynasties coming from Pakistan, just because you are ignorant of history doesn't mean your ignorance becomes a concrete fact.

Lol. Indians were never "enslaved" before Central-Asian (Muslim) and later European (British) invasions.

Lol what?

Others are in better condition than those in pakistan.

Lmao no they're not. They can't even get a proper representation in their own government.

Most Pakistanis are descended from second-tier non-Prophet converts.

Little wonder that neither the Arabs nor Persians take you seriously.

And the boys you send to Syria (and some we do as well) get spud peeling duty there.

Pakistan sees itself as the sword arm of Islam.

The big boys if Islam, the Arabs and Persians, see Pakistan as a conveyor belt of sectarian cannon fodder.

And a fertile soil to wage a war they do not want filthying up their own soil.

Cheers, Doc

It's pretty obvious how little you know about the Muslim world. My advice is for you to stop talking unless you want to embarrass yourself even further.

 

[padamchen]

It's pretty obvious how little you know about the Muslim world. My advice is for you to stop talking unless you want to embarrass yourself even further.

Yes master sir. You the new canon in town.

Do educate me. Please massa sa.

Cheers, Doc

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Do educate me.

1. The Muslim world is not obsessed with ancestry like India is. Get that through your head. We consider ourselves to all be the children of Adam (peace be upon him) and as a result all related. This also means that we care about Muslims that are not from the same culture/ethnicity/race as us. I lived in the Gulf for quite some time, and they had dozens of charity stalls that donated to places outside of the Arab world. The Imams at pretty much every Masjid I visited over there would also, without fail, never forget to remind us to make dua for Muslims suffering all around the world, with non-Arab places like Burma and Kashmir almost always getting specifically mentioned.

2. Iran is only marginally influential among Shia Muslims. They are not at all a major player in the Muslim world, and quite frankly, never have been (most famous Muslim Persians actually came from outside of Iran, e.g Afghanistan).

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Its not a non issue. You have a strong Establishment that wont anyone budge against state narrative. Their is no significant power circle except the federation. But things don't always remain the same. Considering Politicians gaining more and more strength day by day.
Its not a very good approach to always depend on authority for national union. We must Root out these Sensitive topics and resolve these fault lines. while we are strong and we have time to. I don't think solely relying on Muslim Identity is good approach. Its a good Uniting Factor but we need to Pakistanise people more. Considering our geo-political situation. The rebellion of so many Pakistanis against The State during Afghan Invasion by US Coalition is in recent memories. People born in Karachi were stating fatwas against Islamabad for not helping a lost cause of Afghanistan. Even people in Armed forces were reluctant to fight against Taliban in FATA because of shared Religion. Thats dangerous for a nation state. Try to speak against Turkey or Iran or Saudia Policies and their Citizen will rip you to pieces even abuse you and will not care for your religion. While our fellow Pakistanis Start to TC everyone From Muslim countries with brotherhood narrative. Its a mindset you can easily observe on the internet
Syrians and Iraqis never thought that Kurdish question will ever raise when they were beating the Drums of Arab Nationalism for decades. See now the Cat is out of the bag and Kurdish lands are gone for ever. While Turks Never encouraged Racial Nationalist Narrative even though they have the largest Majority of Kurds and see majority of kurds are embedded into Turkish national fabric because they RESOLVED these ideological issues while they had time and carved out a Nationalistic approach that absorbed everyone living inside Turkish border.

Being a patriot is great, but you should realize that you are going to die one day. Will Allah swt ask you what you did to form a nationalist Pakistan? These things are temporary. Every millennium, hundreds of countries break and form together. What exactly are you going to get from strengthening Pakistan? In the moment, it's fine, but in the end, even Pakistan will not be there. At the end of the day, we are just Muslims that fight for our rights to live in this world and have an obligation to oppose injustice. Kaafirs like USA and India think their nations will stand the test of time, but they are arrogant and that is exactly why they will fall. Don't get your head wrapped into the world so much. You should be focusing on yourself instead.

 

[T-123456]

@Hakikat ve Hikmet @xenon54 @MMM-E @T-123456 @KediKesenFare @Test7 @Oublious @cabatli_53 @Timur @Sinan @damm1t @mustafa erkan @CAN_TR

Guys can i get your views on what @OsmanAli98 is saying. All my Turkish friends here are pro Erdogan

Im not pro Erdogan,never was but we dont have any other option,there is no one else for now,so we try to do some damage control,steer him to the right direction.

I never said Pakistan could talk on behalf of the world's Muslim community. Pakistan can talk on the behalf of Pakistani Muslims.

Didnt you just contradict yourself with this post?
''Pakistani Muslims'',so why ''Pakistani'' first,what happened to ''Muslims'' only?

 

[padamchen]

1. The Muslim world is not obsessed with ancestry like India is. Get that through your head. We consider ourselves to all be the children of Adam (peace be upon him) and as a result all related. This also means that we care about Muslims that are not from the same culture/ethnicity/race as us. I lived in the Gulf for quite some time, and they had dozens of charity stalls that donated to places outside of the Arab world. The Imams at pretty much every Masjid I visited over there would also, without fail, never forget to remind us to make dua for Muslims suffering all around the world, with non-Arab places like Burma and Kashmir almost always getting specifically mentioned.

2. Iran is only marginally influential among Shia Muslims. They are not at all a major player in the Muslim world, and quite frankly, never have been (most famous Muslim Persians actually came from outside of Iran, e.g Afghanistan).

Iran sucks massa sa.

It would have been such a nice world without those annoying Persians to mess things up massa.

Cheers, Doc

 

[T-123456]

One cannot absolutely define Nation States in terms of an absolute race or Religion. That leads to Fascism. Nation states come into being due to certain events in history. Status Quo is established. Region and its people are consolidated and unified with the passage of time and identities are developed. People start to become dependent on each other for Development and Security. Then they start to relate to each other. It’s a natural process.

Identities are developed with time not some god sent thing. We are all one race one species. No one is Alien. People need to understand this basic fact.

As for Pakistan Some people take it back to Indus Valley Civilization period but I won’t go that far back because there is a big gap between the Indus Valley civilization settlements and later Settlers. There is no continuity. Harappa and Mohenjo-daro settlers were like 4500 Years ago. While Texila was 3000 Years ago.

While those ancient people were destroyed by Invaders like Persians, Greeks, Aryans etc.

The KNOWN Population centers of the region called Pakistan Today. Baluchistan, Sindh and South Punjab have been unified under a common government for almost 1200 Years. With Arab Conquest of Firstly the Makran coast and then Sindh and South Punjab upto Multan. Whole of Medern day Pakistan was then united under Ghaznavi Rule (Except Sindh) with central Asia, Then Came the Ghauris which also kept this region together. Then the Delhi Sultanate of Mamluks Who also defended these lands against the Mongol Invasions (Give and take some periods of Brief Wars and Rebellions) Also kept this region united with Central Bharat. And then Mughals of Central Asia. And then Ahmad Shah Durrani. Also Maharaja Ranjit Singh of Gujranwala. This Region of Indus Valley Basin along with Makran and Pashtuun Tribes have been loosely united under one ruler or another for over a thousand years until the British came. Which United the Whole of Subcontinent. And Finally we had Pakistan.

Surprisingly We have been together with North Indians and Bengalis for a Long time under different kingdoms. But almost never were united with South Indians which were Always resisting to foreign Rule and Fighting on. South India have historically been united and independent clashed and stayed away from Muslim Ruled North waging wars on north Indians compared to contemporary Pakistanis. For Example The Kakatya Dynasty, Vajayanagara Empire, Kingdom of Mysore, Maratha Empire etc.

Pakistan Region can relate to each other with historical ties of Almost 1000 years without looking to Arabs Persians or Turks for identity. But the problem is we were never self ruled and independent as a unified entity during these 1000 years. May be perhaps Ranjit Singh of Punjab and Talpurs of Sindh Came close to become independent Local Rulers without being a vessel to anyone. And its hard to carve out a self governing Identity out of a sudden. It will take time but it will be done.

And the argument of outsiders and indigenous people is also flawed the way it is used in modern national dynamics by some groups. People who once came as outsiders if settle become indigenous over the centuries That is natural. Anatolian Turks are basically Descendants of Mongols Turks. Cousins to Mamluks that ruled Delhi Sultanate. People are not anchored to an area and should be there for thousands of years to become a nation relating to that region.


Its not a non issue. You have a strong Establishment that wont anyone budge against state narrative. Their is no significant power circle except the federation. But things don't always remain the same. Considering Politicians gaining more and more strength day by day.
Its not a very good approach to always depend on authority for national union. We must Root out these Sensitive topics and resolve these fault lines. while we are strong and we have time to. I don't think solely relying on Muslim Identity is good approach. Its a good Uniting Factor but we need to Pakistanise people more. Considering our geo-political situation. The rebellion of so many Pakistanis against The State during Afghan Invasion by US Coalition is in recent memories. People born in Karachi were stating fatwas against Islamabad for not helping a lost cause of Afghanistan. Even people in Armed forces were reluctant to fight against Taliban in FATA because of shared Religion. Thats dangerous for a nation state. Try to speak against Turkey or Iran or Saudia Policies and their Citizen will rip you to pieces even abuse you and will not care for your religion. While our fellow Pakistanis Start to TC everyone From Muslim countries with brotherhood narrative. Its a mindset you can easily observe on the internet
Syrians and Iraqis never thought that Kurdish question will ever raise when they were beating the Drums of Arab Nationalism for decades. See now the Cat is out of the bag and Kurdish lands are gone for ever. While Turks Never encouraged Racial Nationalist Narrative even though they have the largest Majority of Kurds and see majority of kurds are embedded into Turkish national fabric because they RESOLVED these ideological issues while they had time and carved out a Nationalistic approach that absorbed everyone living inside Turkish border.

Excellent post.

 

[padamchen]

Excellent post.

Largely agree.

Lol though at his naive belief that Turkish Kurds are well assimilated into the Turkish mainstream.

He should visit Turkey to see for himself how the minorities are treated in Erdogan's Islamic Turkey.

And not just the Kurds, who are only the largest.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Bengal71]

Most Pakistanis are descended from second-tier non-Prophet converts.

Little wonder that neither the Arabs nor Persians take you seriously.

And the boys you send to Syria (and some we do as well) get spud peeling duty there.

Pakistan sees itself as the sword arm of Islam.

The big boys if Islam, the Arabs and Persians, see Pakistan as a conveyor belt of sectarian cannon fodder.

And a fertile soil to wage a war they do not want filthying up their own soil.

Cheers, Doc

Nicely put. Totally agree.

Your state is obviously powerless.

Sure your people are ready.

Does not mean they are not being used to further one particular worldview of Islam .... in the fight to control it.

A fight that is racial. Yet nothing to do with your bloodlines.

A fight that is as old as Islam itself.

Cheers, Doc

Doctor, can you please elaborate on this? I just want to check if you hold the same view as mine.

1. The Muslim world is not obsessed with ancestry like India is. Get that through your head. We consider ourselves to all be the children of Adam (peace be upon him) and as a result all related. This also means that we care about Muslims that are not from the same culture/ethnicity/race as us. I lived in the Gulf for quite some time, and they had dozens of charity stalls that donated to places outside of the Arab world. The Imams at pretty much every Masjid I visited over there would also, without fail, never forget to remind us to make dua for Muslims suffering all around the world, with non-Arab places like Burma and Kashmir almost always getting specifically mentioned.

2. Iran is only marginally influential among Shia Muslims. They are not at all a major player in the Muslim world, and quite frankly, never have been (most famous Muslim Persians actually came from outside of Iran, e.g Afghanistan).

 

[T-123456]

Lol though at his naive belief that Turkish Kurds are well assimilated into the Turkish mainstream.

Now,lets see my ancestry,

Fathers side,Turk,Turcoman mix.
Mothers side,Turkmen,Arab,Persian,Kurd mix.
At least 80% of the Turkish society is in some way related to another race.

I guess you are right.

He should visit Turkey to see for himself how the minorities are treated in Erdogan's Islamic Turkey.

Yes he should visit my country to see that all citizens have the same rights,he can see with his own eyes that we dont have a ''caste'' system or skin colour problem like your people have.

You know your attempts will never work,right?