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Pakistani Nationalism - contradictions?

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Unless you have any evidence that points to the contrary, it's really your answer that is ridiculous. Not mine.

Now,lets see my ancestry,

Fathers side,Turk,Turcoman mix.
Mothers side,Turkmen,Arab,Persian,Kurd mix.
At least 80% of the Turkish society is in some way related to another race.

I guess you are right.

Yes he should visit my country to see that all citizens have the same rights,he can see with his own eyes that we dont have a ''caste'' system or skin colour problem like your people have.

You know your attempts will never work,right?

Leave him, the only reason he's obsessed with ancestry is because without it his Persian identity falls apart, because other than ancestry, Parsis have almost no connection with Iran.
 
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U fail to see the bigger picture here, perhaps this one country will unite all those 50 other countries under one border and under one currency and under 1 education and judiciary sysmtem.

I think this country will be perfect to initiate a union like european union. Only this time it will be Muslim union.


EU is Old now we want to see MU on the face of earth.

We should realize having country borders are lame primitive thinking. Future is connectivity and commerce
 
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Unless you have any evidence that points to the contrary, it's really your answer that is ridiculous. Not mine.

Find about 20 of those imams invoking the Lord to deliver the Rohingya and Kashmiris from oppression. Then ask each of them for their daughters' hands in marriage to you. See what they say. That's only one aspect of it.

There is a difference between what's in the scripture and what's in reality.

There is a difference between observation of rituals and true piety.

And the difference can be subtle.

You are not bestowed with the eyes by the Lord to see it, you need to take keen interest and observe, over time your eyes will be trained.

The Islamic world has a caste system almost comparable to the caste system of Hinduism.
 
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Then ask each of them for their daughters' hands in marriage to you. See what they say. That's only one aspect of it.

Apples and oranges. It's not haram nor is it racist to want to marry within your own community. It's natural for people to want their kids to follow their culture and not someone else's.

You are not bestowed with the eyes by the Lord to see it, you need to take keen interest and observe, over time your eyes will be trained.

Don't give me this "you're not experienced" nonsense, I've lived in the Gulf for years, and I've interacted with Arabs for even longer. Are some of them rude and racist? Yes, but many are not. And ultimately, their prejudices have more to do with someone's financial status than their nationality/ethnicity. I'm Pakistani, but me and my family were well off so we were treated nicely, and before you chalk it up to me and my family looking like Arabs, my father looks like Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince and he was treated just as well as the rest of us.

The Islamic world has a caste system almost comparable to the caste system of Hinduism.

Hogwash and you know it.
 
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Apples and oranges. It's not haram nor is it racist to want to marry within your own community. It's natural for people to want their kids to follow their culture and not someone else's.

Don't give me this "you're not experienced" nonsense, I've lived in the Gulf for years, and I've interacted with Arabs for even longer. Are some of them rude and racist? Yes, but many are not. And ultimately, their prejudices have more to do with someone's financial status than their nationality/ethnicity. I'm Pakistani, but me and my family were well off so we were treated nicely, and before you chalk it up to me and my family looking like Arabs, my father looks like Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince and he was treated just as well as the rest of us.

Hogwash and you know it.

That's only one example I gave you, that's not all. The racist caste system in Islamic world is firmly grounded in Shariah. Yeah it's not haram to marry within, but it's exceptionally questionable to require further scrutiny why this thing of marrying within is only found among a certain race only. Then you go and investigate what the source of it is. Let me point you to Shariah.

Wealth is only once aspect of it but it's not all. The source of that racism is elsewhere. They were as racist as now even before their oil fortune when they were making love with goats in the middle of the desert. You have to investigate more.

No hogwash, honestly. You need to look deeper.

I was an Islamist before and I went through my phase of, "Islam is equality", "Islam is glorious" and rest of the rhetoric. I had my time and came out wiser.
 
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Some of these maps belong to British and French diplomats who shred the Ottoman Empire in the 1st World War. Or worse, belongs to some of today's global think tank groups with unreliable sources.

Most of these ethnic mappings are related to perception manipulation and all about geopolitic designs. If the demographic majority is meant, the map shown about the Kurds is overly exaggerated. If the 1 Kurdish house is enough to paint the map, it is correct. However, Istanbul is the first where the most Kurdish people live today.

The main determinant here is the desire for a common life. The feudal order is now over. There is no Kurdish or Turkish homogeneous family left in this day. Seperatist movement in Turkey, not in the main vessel for the Kurds.

If I have to say something about the topic,

The first thing that is indispensable in our understanding , continuity of independent state order. Confusing our nationalism with European nationalism is the biggest mistake you can make.

Either the state takes the power or the raven takes the carrion. ( ya devlet başa ya kuzgun leşe )

Turkish culture maintains where this state comes from and where it will go. To understand this, it is necessary to read Turkish history. When Tugrul bey rescued the Abbasid caliph and took the title of sword of Islam, he had at most 40,000 horsemen. However, it gave the Turks the protection of the Islamic lands for 1000 years.

When we fell , Algeria fell, Bosnia fell, the Caucasus fell, Red Sea fell, all our brothers fell to the ground andflowed chute groove blood. Our religion has been despised, step by step and today radicalized in the hands of global Zionist organizations. Today, the whole world is struggling with the concept of Islamic terrorism, which is created in the laboratory environment.

Like the flowing river, what is Ertuğrul Bey is, in fact, the same as Atatürk. They gave a fresh and healthy sprout from a state that became a wreck. You cannot judge both leaders independently of the surrounding fire circle and difficult conditions. In fact, Ataturk has put forward a much larger strategy. Imagine there are no independent Muslim states in the world. All were colonial or shared by European states on the table. (i know its a controversial topic but) If he didnt suspended the caliphate institution(not removed, just no assignment), they would probably continue as a British institution this day.

Participation in the alliance in favor of the states in which the Ottoman Empire fought is a process that developed after Atatürk. And the main reason for this is Soviet threat who claimed Straits and Eastern Anatolia . Atatürk won the Mondros victory with his genius politics, and even Hatay returned to his home country, but the subsequent political cadres could not demonstrate the same ability and led to the establishment of the Nato gladio in the country. All this is another story.

I would like to say briefly, Please do not try to evaluate the political approaches of Turks with European orientalism. Because the misleading perception of your people and your state is fed by the same orientalism.
 
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Nicely put. Totally agree.

Doctor, can you please elaborate on this? I just want to check if you hold the same view as mine.

The Arab race had been vassals of the Persians for over 3000 years. Through the reign of all the great Persian Zoroastrian empires.

The Persians have always seen the Arabs as an inferior race. One to be tolerated and ruled over. A race of sand dwelling barbarians who they commonly abuse as lizard eaters and daughter killers.

The Arabs were pre-Islam never hated by the Persians. Only looked down on. The Persians saw only the Greeks and the Roman empires as their equal and military competition to the dominion over the civilized world stretching from Asia to Europe and extending to parts of Russia and China.

The Persians always had a hands off policy with their Aryan correligionists in India. The Indus forming the unspoken cleave line between the two civilizations.

Zoroastrianism (Mazdayasniism - and Mithraism and Magiism and Manicheism) was the spiritual monotheistic precusrsor, the first message to the first prophet to and from his chosen people, in the ancient world.

It colored and widely impacted on Judaiism and Christianity and finally Islam. The core tenets remaining the same and unchanged.

Where the faiths diverged and so did the individual Books was the tribe and people specific lore and life in those times. Essentially, Islam came to the Arabs last. And the Quran was the Avesta (and the Torah and the Bible after it) written in Arabic lore, and tribal code.

Islam was always a political movement. An imperialistic movement of Arab rise and finally their day in the sun.

If Al Qadissiyah had gone the other way, Zoroastrianism (more powerful than Christianity for over 500 years of the Roman empire) would have been the dominant religion in the world today. And Islam would have remained a local Arab belief system. Or an Arab cult.

But the boy king leading a weakened empire fatigued by over 2000 years of continuous war, lost. And the Arab hordes sacked Persia.

The Persians though did not go down without a fight and pockets of resistance through the land fought on under feudal rulers and satraps for the next 300 years.

However, the empire was finished. The emperor assassinated. His sons fled into exile to hold a titular Persian throne and court in distant China. From where they plotted a return. That never happened.

Many of the Persian elite seeing the writing on the wall made deals with the Arabs and other satraps, as vicious infighting ensued in the dying throes of the Persian empire. They converted to Islam and jockeyed for power in the new scheme of things.

Things became increasingly difficult for the Zoroastrians and their temples were defiled, their fires spat into. Back breaking taxes and the sword for worshiping Ahura Mazda and not Allah. For following Persian Zarathushtra and not Arab Muhammad.

Increasingly, simultaneously, a power vacuum followed the death of Muhammad. And a power struggle ensued between the warring Arab elite and the Persian elite who were far far more sophisticated in matter of rule and politics and power dynamics and the control of hearts and minds of native and alien populaces on a global scale.

Essentially what happened from there was that increasingly Persians started becoming Muslim. Accepting Islam. And then remolding Islam into their ancestral belief system, insidiously, systematically, thoroughly, completely, to the point where Islam essentially became Zoroastrianism Part 2. Where Ahura Mazda was now called Allah. Where Zarathushtra was now called Muhammad. Where the Avesta gave way to the Quran - but their Quran. And thence followed the writing of the Hadith.

It is a known fact that to a man, almost all the clerics and writers of those times, were Persian. Not Arab. Theirs is the narrative that got pushed. That endured. That got propagated over the next 1300 years of Islam around the world.And softened the blow for the common Persians when after 300 years of struggle Persia finally "converted" completely by 1000 AD.

And therein lies the irony. Islam in its moment of greatest triumph, also seeded its permanent internal split and war.

And the Middle East and the Muslim world will always have the mirage of Peace till Persia finally reclaims herself and reverts to her original faith. And the mother faith of all monotheist major faiths of the world.

It is a huge soul numbing and mental crunch for the Persians vis a vis the Arabs. Who they hate. But love Muhammad. To having to write in the Arabic script when the Persian one was one of the world's oldest. Of praying in Arabic and not their ancestral Avestan.

All this while they continue to fight the Arabs for control of their former empire minion states. And peoples. Once more.

Cheers, Doc
 
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No, it's not. I doubt you even know much about Sharia.



No, you came out even dumber. Rather than becoming a moderate, you shifted from one idiotic extreme to another.

I do.

No I did not. I did become a moderate, didn't go to the other extreme as you are assuming. Regardless, what I said remains. You may choose to disagree or investigate yourself further.

I don't want to discuss this anymore. Thanks for the time.
 
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The Arab race had been vassals of the Persians for over 3000 years. Through the reign of all the great Persian Zoroastrian empires.

The Persians have always seen the Arabs as an inferior race. One to be tolerated and ruled over. A race of sand dwelling barbarians who they commonly abuse as lizard eaters and daughter killers.

The Arabs were pre-Islam never hated by the Persians. Only looked down on. The Persians saw only the Greeks and the Roman empires as their equal and military competition to the dominion over the civilized world stretching from Asia to Europe and extending to parts of Russia and China.

The Persians always had a hands off policy with their Aryan correligionists in India. The Indus forming the unspoken cleave line between the two civilizations.

Zoroastrianism (Mazdayasniism - and Mithraism and Magiism and Manicheism) was the spiritual monotheistic precusrsor, the first message to the first prophet to and from his chosen people, in the ancient world.

It colored and widely impacted on Judaiism and Christianity and finally Islam. The core tenets remaining the same and unchanged.

Where the faiths diverged and so did the individual Books was the tribe and people specific lore and life in those times. Essentially, Islam came to the Arabs last. And the Quran was the Avesta (and the Torah and the Bible after it) written in Arabic lore, and tribal code.

Islam was always a political movement. An imperialistic movement of Arab rise and finally their day in the sun.

If Al Qadissiyah had gone the other way, Zoroastrianism (more powerful than Christianity for over 500 years of the Roman empire) would have been the dominant religion in the world today. And Islam would have remained a local Arab belief system. Or an Arab cult.

But the boy king leading a weakened empire fatigued by over 2000 years of continuous war, lost. And the Arab hordes sacked Persia.

The Persians though did not go down without a fight and pockets of resistance through the land fought on under feudal rulers and satraps for the next 300 years.

However, the empire was finished. The emperor assassinated. His sons fled into exile to hold a titular Persian throne and court in distant China. From where they plotted a return. That never happened.

Many of the Persian elite seeing the writing on the wall made deals with the Arabs and other satraps, as vicious infighting ensued in the dying throes of the Persian empire. They converted to Islam and jockeyed for power in the new scheme of things.

Things became increasingly difficult for the Zoroastrians and their temples were defiled, their fires spat into. Back breaking taxes and the sword for worshiping Ahura Mazda and not Allah. For following Persian Zarathushtra and not Arab Muhammad.

Increasingly, simultaneously, a power vacuum followed the death of Muhammad. And a power struggle ensued between the warring Arab elite and the Persian elite who were far far more sophisticated in matter of rule and politics and power dynamics and the control of hearts and minds of native and alien populaces on a global scale.

Essentially what happened from there was that increasingly Persians started becoming Muslim. Accepting Islam. And then remolding Islam into their ancestral belief system, insidiously, systematically, thoroughly, completely, to the point where Islam essentially became Zoroastrianism Part 2. Where Ahura Mazda was now called Allah. Where Zarathushtra was now called Muhammad. Where the Avesta gave way to the Quran - but their Quran. And thence followed the writing of the Hadith.

It is a known fact that to a man, almost all the clerics and writers of those times, were Persian. Not Arab. Theirs is the narrative that got pushed. That endured. That got propagated over the next 1300 years of Islam around the world.And softened the blow for the common Persians when after 300 years of struggle Persia finally "converted" completely by 1000 AD.

And therein lies the irony. Islam in its moment of greatest triumph, also seeded its permanent internal split and war.

And the Middle East and the Muslim world will always have the mirage of Peace till Persia finally reclaims herself and reverts to her original faith. And the mother faith of all monotheist major faiths of the world.

It is a huge soul numbing and mental crunch for the Persians vis a vis the Arabs. Who they hate. But love Muhammad. To having to write in the Arabic script when the Persian one was one of the world's oldest. Of praying in Arabic and not their ancestral Avestan.

All this while they continue to fight the Arabs for control of their former empire minion states. And peoples. Once more.

Cheers, Doc

I agree with a lot of it, disagree with some. The disagreements need not be discussed because of irrelevance.

I hold the opinion that the Islam that is in circulation today, has been carefully crafted by the Arabs as an imperialist ideology to secure their privilege and dominion over the Muslim world at the expense of non-Arabs. Arabs considering Pakistanis as lowly canon fodders as you mentioned earlier agrees with the two lines I wrote above.

Probably because you know how little evidence your claims have.

There is evidence and I have posted some of that previously in other threads. I am tired of arguing this over and over again here and other places with zealous Muslims. Anyway, think what you like about my withdrawal from the discussion, thanks.
 
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You know your attempts will never work,right?

Regardless of what guys like cabatli say in the safety of the Turkish section, the fact remains that there are 40 million Kurds in the world.

The largest ethnic group without a land of its own.

Well, the fact also remains that such is not the case anymore.

Kurdistan is a military reality.

They hold an area that is bigger than most European nation states.

And they hold it by force.

What Turkey is doing is fighting its own Kurds. But they move across your borders and set base in northern Iraq. In terrain where bombs and armour and infantry just wont work.

You have been in this fight for what, 40 odd years now?

Surely a NATO military power should have mopped up the same if it was such a small problem as some of you like to make it out to be.

Fact remains, that a Kurdish state is a reality. A reality whose time has come. The ONLY way you can uproot them from the land the hold as the de facto military power, is if you join forces. And pincer them.

And we both know the chances of that happening.

Cheers, Doc
 
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I agree with a lot of it, disagree with some. The disagreements need not be discussed because of irrelevance.

I hold the opinion that the Islam that is in circulation today, has been carefully crafted by the Arabs as an imperialist ideology to secure their privilege and dominion over the Muslim world at the expense of non-Arabs. Arabs considering Pakistanis as lowly canon fodders as you mentioned earlier agrees with the two lines I wrote above.

@padamchen It started very early on during the Umayyad. In shariah the only people who can be charged jizya are the Ahlul Kitab (Christians and Jews). Umayyad used to charge jizya from non-Arab muslims, which is haram. One of the reasons for the demise of Umayyad and succession by the Abbasid is rebellion by primarily Persian muslim coverts because of widespread discrimination including but not limited to the Jizya issue. It was a true defention of apartheid. We today see the continuation of the same in a different format. The treatment of Pak, Bangali, Indian muslims in the Arab world according to many is because of disparity in wealth, which I think is only a minor reason, the greater reason is in the Shariah itself which being crafted by Arabs for their own benefits granted them some privileges not to be found in the Quran itself..
 
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Bad news for the OP ... finance minister just declared that it is part of his belief that this country was granted by Allah ...

So the current leadership does not agree with the secular definition of nationality as raised by OP @Indus Pakistan
 
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@padamchen It started very early on during the Umayyad. In shariah the only people who can be charged jizya are the Ahlul Kitab (Christians and Jews). Umayyad used to charge jizya from non-Arab muslims, which is haram. One of the reasons for the demise of Umayyad and succession by the Abbasid is rebellion by primarily Persian muslim coverts because of widespread discrimination including but not limited to the Jizya issue. It was a true defention of apartheid.

Bhai Bengali, have you ever wondered why there is no mention of Zarathushtra or the Avesta in the Quran.

Ahlul Kitab means people of the Book right?

@LoveIcon

These are difficult questions for practicing Muslims in 2018 to answer. So I won't hold my breath.

Either for an answer or the inevitable ban.

Cheers, Doc
 
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