Pakistani Milgem Likely in Trouble

[Syed TALHA SHAH]

gud work

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hull lengtening? Huh? Nah, just installing a VLU forward.

It i am not wrong, RAN original FFGs were short hulls and were later increased to in cooperate Sea Hawks.

 

[500]

Most of the cost of the Aussie upgrade is not so much in the SM2 but in upgrades to the combat management system and sensors. And their navy is not just buying 'off the shelf' items but also developing tailored domestic solutions.

I think that if it was easy and cheap to upgrade OHP to SM-2 everyone would do so instead using the obsolete SM-1.

Anyhow I checked Milgem price and changed my opinion. If it costs 200 mln a unit it's a good deal for PN. I thought it will be much more expensive.

 

[Penguin]

It i am not wrong, RAN original FFGs were short hulls and were later increased to in cooperate Sea Hawks.

Let's try not mix different efforts.

The first three ships were constructed to the Perry class' 'short' hull design, with an identical length for both the main deck and the keel. The other three ships were built with an increase in overall length to begin with.

There have been two major upgrades. The first took place in the mid-1990s on 3 ships and involved angling the transom (the section between the fantail and the keel) to increase the area of the flight deck and allow the operation of Seahawk helicopters. This translates to greater length over all, but is not a real hull stretch by any means. Similar work has been done on ex-Dutch M-frigates sold to Chile.

The current frigate upgrade under SEA 1390, also known as the FFG Upgrade Project, involves no lengthening whatsoever. The upgrade was for four ships and intended to expand their service life to approximately 2020. The project cost was partly offset by the decommissioning of the two oldest units: Canberra paying off in 2005 and Adelaide in 2008. Modification of the four remaining ships occurred in recent years i.e. post 2000.

The first of the four upgraded frigates, HMAS Sydney, returned to the RAN fleet in 2005. By November 2008, Darwin's upgrade had been completed, while the problems experienced with Sydney had been rectified in both ships.

 

[BATMAN]

I agree with 500.
200million$ is a very good deal for PN.
Pakistan is paying around 80million$ for the upgrade of de-commisoined frigate which will last quarter of the life what new milgem would last.

Some how PN have developed some serious issues, since new Chief took over, like first they went for French submarines over German U boats and later they changed their entire doctrine and sidelined submarines and started following frigates and now left milgem in soup over scrap and paid 80million$ for it.

I don't think any thing more can go wrong with PN.

 

[fatman17]

the issue is priortization of inducting weapons systems in the navy - at the moment sub-surface vessels are the priority not surface ships - the 6 amazons, the 4 swords and 4 perrys (1/year) are adequate at this time - further 4 additional swords or destroyers are under discussion.

the sub fleet is down to 6 boats - we desperately need more modern subs to replace the daphne's.

milgem is a victim of priority - it cld come up later again.

 

[Donatello]

I agree with 500.
200million$ is a very good deal for PN.
Pakistan is paying around 80million$ for the upgrade of de-commisoined frigate which will last quarter of the life what new milgem would last.

Some how PN have developed some serious issues, since new Chief took over, like first they went for French submarines over German U boats and later they changed their entire doctrine and sidelined submarines and started following frigates and now left milgem in soup over scrap and paid 80million$ for it.

I don't think any thing more can go wrong with PN.

Just look at how quickly the PAF got it's choices.

JF-17s on time.
AWACs arriving before time....and 8 of them.
J-10s on order.....F-16s.


We need to spend like that on Navy.

PN must request more funds.....or get Chinese weapons with loans. That is the best option i guess.

 

[Penguin]

I think that if it was easy and cheap to upgrade OHP to SM-2 everyone would do so instead using the obsolete SM-1.

Anyhow I checked Milgem price and changed my opinion. If it costs 200 mln a unit it's a good deal for PN. I thought it will be much more expensive.

The Aussie adopted SM2 because they intend to switch to this missile in due course with their new AWDs (modified Spanish F100 frigates) as well as for their ANZAC (Meko 200) frigate upgrade. So for that navy it is a logical upgrade choice. For Turkey and many other ex-USN Perry users (Egypt, Poland, Gulf countries) that isn't so much the case: none of them are adopting new ships with SM2. You might expect such a more from e.g. Spain in due course, which like Australia built some if not all their OHPs at home and is adopting F100 frigates. But Spain chose to not upgrade the SM1 equiped Knox based home built Baleares class and so I would expect them to sooner replace the Santa Maria class OHPs with F100s or follows ons rather than invest in their upgrade.

Besides, the Mk13 launcher is fully compatible with SM2. Point is, that missile has a much longer range than SM1 (40nm/74km as compared to 25nm/46km). As the effective range is almost doubled, the limits of illuminator power of the single STIR are reached.

In the Aussie upgrade a Mk41 with 32 ESSM is added. This has roughly the range of the old SM1MR. It introduced a rapid fire capability. This required additional firecontrol channels. Aside from the STIR, the ship has the WM25 dome (CAS: combined antenna system) which can guide ESSM closer in. But that still is only 2 channels. Hence the Aussies sought to add another channel via an upgrade to the Mk92 fircontrol system.

And then there is the fact that the main search radar - while long range - is 2D, providing range and bearing only. It is inadequate for detecting low flying targets, so that too would need work.

In all, trying to make a full fledged AAW ship out of this general purpose escort requires significant investment and the question is really if that's worth it. Even if you have a sufficient number of missiles of sufficient range (32 SM2 on the Mk13 and a Mk41 with 32 ESSM), the Mk13 launcher is still slow and can't ripple fire onto targets coming in from multiple directions simultaneously, the number of targets that can be engaged still limited to at best 3 at the same time (but not all at the same long ranges) and the sensor suite still isn't ideally optimized for effective air defence and fully utilizing the missiles capabilities against all manner of target types from seaskimming AShM to aircraft.

Again, cost of adopting SM2 as such is not so much the issue. In the end, the question is whether what you'ld get for that kind of total investment in a refit is worth it in capability gains, compared to a similar investment in a (smaller) number of (smaller) new ships. You can easily stick SM2MR onto an OHP if it still has a Mk13 launcher. The problem is, you won't make full use of that missile' s capabilities with the existing combat systems and sensor suite. Which in turn triggers additional investments in these systems. And that's where it gets expensive. Not so much making an OHP SM2 compatible but rather turning a general purpose escort into a dedicated AAW ship.

Personally, if I were a used OHP user and it represented to biggest ship I operated in the foreseeable future, I wouldn't upgrade OHP with SM2 or ESSM at all. I'ld modernize the combat system, reinstate Mk13 (32 SM1 + 8 Harpoon) and perhaps install 1x RAM or FL-3000 launcher forward to boost air self defence capability.

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan is paying around 80million$ for the upgrade of de-commisoined frigate which will last quarter of the life what new milgem would last.

You're still not getting the deal.

 

[monitor]

Just look at how quickly the PAF got it's choices.

JF-17s on time.
AWACs arriving before time....and 8 of them.
J-10s on order.....F-16s.


We need to spend like that on Navy.

PN must request more funds.....or get Chinese weapons with loans. That is the best option i guess.

Your navy's modernization were not as important as airforce and army as the the main threat will come from indian border.but navy should now get some importance as your adversary's massive build up may over whelm your relatively small navy .

 

[Vajra_Yuddh]

Tufail, however, said he believes there is a case for renegotiating the F-16C/D Block 52 delivery schedule along with the payment of the remaining tranches, and that the JF-17 program would also have to be put on a go-slow, instead of the accelerated program currently underway. Likewise, he said, any new contracts, especially of costly avionics packages, need to be delayed, as it would be tantamount to mocking the post-flood reconstruction efforts which are expected to run into billions of dollars, he said.

But there were reports that the JFT project you folks had was already on an easy finance scheme excluding your own expenditure that would enable you to continue assembling no matter what, right? Then what happened to that report?

I doubt Lockheed Martin will be that accomodating about the F-16's new price rise. Forget talking to them; they won't listen.

If any service is likely to suffer, it is the Navy. Usman Shabbir of the Pakistani Military Consortium said the Navys next-generation submarine contest has been decided by default.

The German submarine deal, I am certain, is now dead after these floods, he said, referring to neverconcluded negotiations to purchase the HDW Type-214 that had been selected by the Navy. It had been expected the deal would be signed in 2008 or 2009.

You can choose to enhance either the surface fleet or the underwater fleet. Slow down one side. You've already got a decent surface fleet so go for the subs first.

 

[Jigs]

You're still not getting the deal.

He is just saying the Milgem would have been the better choice which is true. The OHP deal though would have a much lower cost in the end though.

 

[Penguin]

He is just saying the Milgem would have been the better choice which is true. The OHP deal though would have a much lower cost in the end though.

Maybe. But there are many factors to consider e.g. when would they have become available and when are subsequent OHPs becoming available? This in view of the block-obsolescence that PN is facing.

 

[Jigs]

Maybe. But there are many factors to consider e.g. when would they have become available and when are subsequent OHPs becoming available? This in view of the block-obsolescence that PN is facing.

Yeah i was going to mention time frame. A possible solution could be pakistan coming in for the second Milgem build to gain knowledge of the systems then a second production line can open up at their main shipyard with Turkish assistance or this could be sub contracted through a private Turkish shipyard which is already being planned for later Turkish milgem builds. This would also benefit the platforms export potential.

Looking at their coastline would you not agree stealthy LCS would be the top choice here.

 

[Penguin]

Yeah i was going to mention time frame. A possible solution could be pakistan coming in for the second Milgem build to gain knowledge of the systems then a second production line can open up at their main shipyard with Turkish assistance or this could be sub contracted through a private Turkish shipyard which is already being planned for later Turkish milgem builds. This would also benefit the platforms export potential.

Looking at their coastline would you not agree stealthy LCS would be the top choice here.

Let's see how quickly and succesfully the first domestically produced F22P arrives. Then decided how difficult it would be to produce an improved version. The choice to build F22P 'at home' basically works against local production of Milgem or even purchase, IMHO. Considering it is not all that much bigger than Milgem.