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Pakistani Hindus Facing Forced Conversions (The News Ed, 19 Sep 2009)

Sorry mate.....
Im not sure about the folks in Germany, but every Turk I have met here in the US and trust me, we had a lot of Turks in my school, were
a) extremely liberal
b) non-religious
c) Did not follow a single tenant of Islam (If you know what I mean)....

But every country has its anomalies and maybe I met the outliers....but from my expirience Turks tend to blend very easily in Western society due to these factors......best example is why they are being considered for the EU

Though I do concur....that Pakistani's and Turks get along very well and the two societies are quite fond of each other.....my personal expirience...

sorry mate but where I live in germany its called small istanbul. The first Turks were settled here the city also has the biggest mosque in germany and one of the biggest in Europ built of course by Turks. If you go in the turkish area of the city you will see more scarfs than you see in islamabad. Its also really hard to get a place for jumma prayer if you get a bit late. I know a whole well settled community not some random liberal guys not following a single tenant of Islam.
And that is the reason they are having tough getting in EU.
 
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Sorry mate.....
Im not sure about the folks in Germany, but every Turk I have met here in the US and trust me, we had a lot of Turks in my school, were
a) extremely liberal
b) non-religious
c) Did not follow a single tenant of Islam (If you know what I mean)....

But every country has its anomalies and maybe I met the outliers....but from my expirience Turks tend to blend very easily in Western society due to these factors......best example is why they are being considered for the EU

Though I do concur....that Pakistani's and Turks get along very well and the two societies are quite fond of each other.....my personal expirience...

I lived in USA, I find Turks as extremely liberal but religious and this is my experience and I know hundred of them .....:azn:
 
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Cite a few please.

Yes Let us start with the world's no 1. Islamic Bigot of the medeival age.

The destoyer, plunderer and looter of Nalanda.....

Yes, you guessed it right mate.

Ikhtiyar - Uddin - Bakhtiyar - Khalji.

What say?
 
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That link is making me nauseous. To claim "Islam is peace, thus there are no forced conversions" mocks people who experienced such attempts in the present day - didn't you read that New York Times reporter's account, of how his captors pressured him under threat of death?

That Islam was spread by the sword is evidenced even in the euphemism used for the spread of Islam: "opening up the lands" - because Islam extinguished or drove out so much of the conquered populations that the lands were comparatively empty. The frightened remainder either converted or paid extra-high taxes.

The principle exception was Indonesia, where Islam was spread by traders. But how many of them were arms merchants who sold superior weaponry to their co-religionists, who could then have a go at non-Muslims? That's the thought that popped in my mind during the East Timor conflict.
 
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This coming from a Jew I find most ungrateful.

You were treated rather well, particularly in Muslim Spain where your brethren left along with the Muslims upon the Christian recapture.

Those of you who did not leave along with the Muslims were forced to do so as soon as the Alhambra decree was issued by the Christians.

Still, it was a fruitful 781 years the comprised the Jewish Golden age.

Read up on it.

That Islam was spread by the sword is evidenced even in the euphemism used for the spread of Islam: "

Here are some quotes by non-Muslim scholars with regards to the spread of Islam:

1. “The other great religions,” writes Lothrope in his book ‘New World of Islam,’ “won their way slowly, by painful struggle, and finally triumphed with the aid of powerful monarchs converted to the new Faith. Christianity had its Constantine, Buddhism its Asoka and Zoroastrianism its Cyrus, each lending to his chosen cult the mighty force of secular authority. Not so Islam. Arising in a desert land sparsely inhabited by a nomad race, previously undistinguished in human annals, Islam sallied forth on its great adventure with the slenderest human backing and against the heaviest material odds. Yet, Islam triumphed with seemingly miraculous ease.”

2. “No other religion in history spread so readily as Islam––The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts that idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in support of freedom of conscience. The evidence is strong that Islam welcomed the people of many diverse religions, so long as they behaved themselves and paid extra taxes. Muhammad constantly taught that Muslims should cooperate with the “people of the Book” (Jews and Christians)…. Testimony is overwhelming that “followers of the Book” were usually given decent treatment, sanctuary and freedom to worship as they wished.”

––(Michener)

3. “History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”

––(O’Leary)

4. “Under the Moorish Governments of Spain, when Islam enjoyed political ascendancy, the large masses of native Christians were protected by a wide toleration, not as a political expedient, but according to the laws of Islam. The Christians were permitted to have their bishops, churches and monasteries, and to be judged by their own laws and tribunals, whenever the question at issue was one that related only to themselves.”

––(Blyden)

5. “They succeeded because they deserved to succeed; Islam triumphed because it brought a message that was needed by the Oriental world. Before the Heigira, the Mussslmans had endured persecution without defence; later, they put a legitimate resistance and when they became victors they practiced tolerance to a considerable degree. The idolater was not allowed to remain on Muslim soil; but the People of the Book, both Jew and Christian, by paying tribute, had a right to protection, could practice their faith freely, and were considered a part of the community. “He who wrongs a Jew or a Christian”, said Muhammad, “will have me as his accuser”.

The Qur’an and the Hadiths are replete with counsels of tolerance the first Mussalman conquerors followed this advice on the whole faithfully ….. When ‘Omar entered Jerusalem, he ordered the Christians not to be molested, neither them nor their churches, and showered favours on the patriarch. When the patriarch invited him to pray in the cathedral he refused only because he feared that this might be used later as a pretext for seizing the church. What a contrast, we cannot help saying, with the entry of the crusaders, advancing in a river of blood up to the knees of the knights and the bridles of the horses, deciding to cut the throats of all Muslim men who had escaped the first slaughter.”

––(Dermenghem)

6. “The God of nature has written His existence on all His works, and His law in the heart of man. To restore the knowledge of the one, and the practice of the other, has been the real or pretended aim of the prophets of every age: the liberality of Muhammad allowed to his predecessors the same credit which he claimed for himself; and the chain of inspiration was prolonged from the fall of Adam to the promulgation of the Qur’an.”

––(Gibbon)

7. A European Christian scholar Sir T.W. Arnold in his book ‘The Preaching of Islam’ writes:

“That force was not the determining factor in these conversions may be judged from the amicable relations that existed between the Christian and the Muslim Arabs. Muhammad himself had entered into treaty with several Christian tribes, promising them his protection and guaranteeing them the free exercise of their religion and to their clergy undisturbed enjoyment of their old rights and authority.”

He goes on to say: “From the examples given above of the toleration extended towards the Christian Arabs by the victorious Muslims of the first century of the Hijrah and continued by succeeding generations, we may surely infer that those Christian tribes that did embrace Islam, did so of their own choice and free will.”

“When the Muslim army reached the valley of Jordan and Abu Ubaydah pitched his comp at Fihl, the Christian inhabitants of the country wrote to the Arabs, saying: “O Muslims, we prefer you to the Byzantines, though they are of our own faith because you keep better faith with us and are more merciful to us and refrain from doing us injustice and your rule over us is better than theirs, for they have robbed us of our goods and our homes.”

“Such was the state of feeling in Syria during the campaign of 633 – 639 in which the Arabs gradually drove the Roman army out of the province. And when Damascus, in 637, set the example of making terms with the Arabs, and, thus, secured immunity from plunder and other favourable conditions, the rest of the cities of Syria were not slow to follow. Emessa, Arethusa, Hieropolis and other towns entered into treaties whereby they became tributary to the Arabs. Even the patriarch of Jerusalem surrendered the city on similar terms.

The fear of religious compulsion on the part of the heretical emperor made the promise of Muslim toleration appear more attractive than the connection with the Roman Empire and a Christian government, and after the first terrors caused by the passage of an invading army, there succeeded a profound revulsion of feeling in favour of the Arab conquerors”.

The frightened remainder either converted or paid extra-high taxes.

There are two facts in life:

- Death
- Taxes

Both Muslims and Jews paid taxes. The Muslims paid the Zakah whilst the ahel-Kitab (you guys) paid the Jizya.

It may surprise you to know that the Jizya was incidentally lower than the Zakah. The notion of “extra high” taxation is a lie.

For further information about Jizya taxation please read the following post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...g-convert-islam-family-says-2.html#post399975
 
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