Pakistani claims of high Taliban casualties 'wildly exaggerated' - US officials

[Elmo]

So if you cannot trust it blindly, why not give the Army a chance to operate and consolidate instead of doubting? What other concrete proof do you or others have as to what the situation on the ground is? Why jump on this silly bash PA bandwagon when the sole purpose of many here is (even though nobody can back their **** up regardless of which country they represent, be it the US or India or Israel..all have ***ked up COIN and then on top of that they claim expertise) to just put down the PA. If you suggest exaggeration then its a fact of life and you have to get used to it. Those across the border and in Afghanistan and Iraq are really adept at it too. There is a certain psychology at play here to announce what is announced. Just run with it. It matters little as to how many, what matters more is that they see the iron and they are forced to disperse..this is essentially the success factor, not 1000 killed or 100 killed. If body count settled wars then we would all be at peace now as enough have been wasted.

Critique is nice and easy and it comes very cheap...let the operations go on and give them a chance.

Hmm... well to begin with the army really isn't stopping if I can ask it to. It is operating regardless of me giving it a chance or not. As for doubting what is happening on the ground, it's a logical thinking process — find it hard to be dissociated from that.

I am not into bashing the Pakistan Army. If someone is at fault, why not point it out.

The rest of your sentence was lost in the pejoratives, so I didn't quite get what you said in that line about counter-insurgency and I can't reply to it.

Lastly, show of force is necessary and is there but has come about too late. The locals are disenchanted with the Taliban, the government of Pakistan and the army. Up to a million have been displaced, thousands others have had their livelihoods affected. These numbers, sir, do matter. I would ask you to go to the camps for the internally displaced people — you would know how miserable they are.

I know the figures released by the ISPR are gross exaggerations — I am cool with that as long as they achieve an end. The same skewed numbers were released for the operations in Waziristan — the result was an deal with the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan to not engage in fighting. It isn't unsurprising that there are drone attacks by the US in the agencies and Pakistan doesn't raise much mayhem on it. The US is well aware that Pakistan is not fighting a war there — the US though is still carrying on its war.

Yup, critique is nice, easy and cheap — you forgot to add that the hardest bit is being able to take and withstand it.

 

[Elmo]

Stop that! Nobody here is talking about not giving the PA a chance. What we're talking about is that the PA is making claims and not offering proof. The PA's previous record is of boastful engagements followed by a a PA re-deployment and a Taliban advance. Why should the PA be believed now without further proofs?

Thank you!

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

I say we embed Nadja & Solomon2 & anyone else here with the PA detachment. We can then all get updates on hourly basis!!!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It isn't anti-Pakistan bandwagon. Just a really hard introspection and then a conclusion.

Since "no one knows" what the army is up to, I can't trust it blindly. The army's history with these extremists in Fata and the deals being struck in Waziristan refuse to let me take it seriously.

And the perfidious history of the US establishment and how it has manipulated the media to push its foreign policy agenda allows you to take hacks like Roggio quoting the same 'anonymous officials' seriously and with credibility?

Whatever position you want to take, it should at the least be backed by some sort of evidence - Roggio's article has none, and how much 'independent verification' of Taliban casualties do we have in Afghanistan?

You do realize that the Afghan Taliban claim that they have suffered a fraction of the casualties NATO/US claim, along with also claiming that they have inflicted far greater casualties upon US/NATO troops.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

LinkinPark:

Why is artillery being used to attack the Taliban rather than infantry who can then hold the position they have just taken?

Who says infantry isn't being used and cleared areas not being secured? Perhaps the gentleman who wrote that should read through the ISPR briefings a bit more carefully.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I watched General Athar on Geo TV and he said ISPR will release operation footage very very soon.

it won't matter to numbskulls like Roggio - because every single one of those 700+ terrorists won't be caught on camera in their death throws...

 

[Elmo]

And the perfidious history of the US establishment and how it has manipulated the media to push its foreign policy agenda allows you to take hacks like Roggio quoting the same 'anonymous officials' seriously and with credibility?

Whatever position you want to take, it should at the least be backed by some sort of evidence - Roggio's article has none, and how much 'independent verification' of Taliban casualties do we have in Afghanistan?

You do realize that the Afghan Taliban claim that they have suffered a fraction of the casualties NATO/US claim, along with also claiming that they have inflicted far greater casualties upon US/NATO troops.

I NEVER said that I consider Roggio's article credible. You need to go over my posts again please.

Afghan Taliban and independent verification... I have no idea where those are coming in from

 

[roadrunner]

In fact, if it's all a show, I commend the Pakistan Army on their ingenuity. If it's not, better get it fully cleared and manned for good. Personally I think this is all because of what is happening next door in Afghanistan, so I'm sort of detached from it - I don't believe figures given by anyone. Every country inflates enemy casualties, be they India, US, France, Germany etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I NEVER said that I consider Roggio's article credible. You need to go over my posts again please.

Afghan Taliban and independent verification... I have no idea where those are coming in from

Roggio refers to a TTP statement claiming minimal casualties in the recent operation as if that bolsters his argument - my point was that by that standard the claim of the Afghan Taliban should also be given the same 'respect' by Roggio, but then that woudl call into question US claims in Afghanistan.

And another deliberate manipulation of the facts by Roggio that I pointed out elsewhere:

Roggio states:

The Pakistani military also claimed it is targeting the Taliban's senior leadership in Swat,

Now, if you read through the link he offers as support for his statement you'll find there is no reference of the Pakistani Military making that claim.

That is an piece by Rahimullah Yousufzai who talks about Ibn Aqeel's death, hi brother and some other commanders.

In fact even Yousufzai states that Ibn Aqeel may have not have been deliberately targeted as a commander, but was killed since he was part of an assault on PA positions.

Such distortions and dishonesty is common from Roggio - anything he can lie and manipulate to bash the PA.

But other than the brother of Ibn Amim, the leader of al Qaeda's Shadow Army brigade operating in Swat and Buner, no senior commanders have been killed or captured.

And after distorting the facts he sets up his strawman to bash the PA - no doubt he'll use this in the future as well to call into question the 'claims of the PA'.

Also on the largest casualty claim by the Military (200) in one day, we do have some non-military confirmation:

Miscreants training camp at Banai Baba was destroyed. Dead bodies and weapons of miscreants were found in the area. Reportedly 140-150 miscreants were killed at Banai Baba Training Camp. DCO Shangla confirmed through his sources the killing of 140-150 miscreants. Shangla top has also been secured.
Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

 

[S-2]

I think the metrics being guessed at and the basis for such to be wrong and irrelevant.

Dead bodies are a very imperfect measure for success here. Ephermeal with no hint of stamina. It's therefore far too soon to make that call. Nobody knows the specifics of battle so all else is speculation. Few will remember the state of Mingora and other places before the battle so ALL damage will be battle damage, correct?

MY metrics? Refugees moving back and buildings being rebuilt. Armies that stay because somebody finally understands that until your gun laws change, your cops are outgunned AND outnumbered.

No village/city cop should have to live like that and be expected to perform his job.

This will take awhile.

 

[Elmo]

Roggio refers to a TTP statement claiming minimal casualties in the recent operation as if that bolsters his argument - my point was that by that standard the claim of the Afghan Taliban should also be given the same 'respect' by Roggio, but then that woudl call into question US claims in Afghanistan.

And another deliberate manipulation of the facts by Roggio that I pointed out elsewhere:

Roggio states:


Now, if you read through the link he offers as support for his statement you'll find there is no reference of the Pakistani Military making that claim.

That is an piece by Rahimullah Yousufzai who talks about Ibn Aqeel's death, hi brother and some other commanders.

In fact even Yousufzai states that Ibn Aqeel may have not have been deliberately targeted as a commander, but was killed since he was part of an assault on PA positions.

Such distortions and dishonesty is common from Roggio - anything he can lie and manipulate to bash the PA.


And after distorting the facts he sets up his strawman to bash the PA - no doubt he'll use this in the future as well to call into question the 'claims of the PA'.

Also on the largest casualty claim by the Military (200) in one day, we do have some non-military confirmation:

To cut the long story short Agnostic, I never went through the link. I don't read blogs, as I assume is the case here. So I won't argue with what Roggio (whoever he is) said or construed.

As for DCO Shangla's "source", well how do we know it's not the army feeding this to him? Currently, nobody has a "source" in these areas. There is a complete media blackout. Read "The Invisble War", it came in The News today/yesterday.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

PA should be questioned on its tactics, its numbers and it's results. That is a prerogative of a democracy. But there's an element of hypocrisy here. People were complaining about the army's inaction, now they're complaining when it is acting. So it goes.

What strikes me is that PA's historic first among equals, or sometimes the 'only equal' role in Pakistani politics is a today a strategic disadvantage when it comes to media PR during internal ops. Usually at times like these, based on the civilian primacy in the chain of command, the political leadership takes the flak and criticism for the strategic/ tactical decisions of the generals. Not the PA, not here, because it is clear that it is the institution really in charge and therefore really responsible.

That aside, the ongoing fight cannot be won by PA alone. Pakistan's administrative and political elites are also in a long, grinding and stamina destroying war to the finish whether they know it or not, and the winner gets an entire people. Their weapons are economic and social development, their heavy artillery - employment, their armoured divisions - food, shelter and clothing, their assault 'copters - education and health services. PA has enough ammo and training, we know that. How about the other arms of the government of Pakistan?

 

[Durran3]

I agree with the above statement.. The Army is just doing its job, if you really have a problem with the way its performing its operations take it to the higher authorities which is the PPP government which the people of Pakistan elected..

Till than let the Army do its job..

And to those who are severely worried about people being displaced because of Artillery shells.. would you honestly have them living under the Taliban control where they will be harrassed and be forced to live in a complete state of idiocracy or have them displaced for a few months and than allow them to get back and live their day to day 'normal' lives? .

 

[EyelessInGaza]

....

And to those who are severely worried about people being displaced because of Artillery shells.. would you honestly have them living under the Taliban control where they will be harrassed and be forced to live in a complete state of idiocracy or have them displaced for a few months and than allow them to get back and live their day to day 'normal' lives? .

Precisely.

I would be concerned about the army's numbers, deeply worried about the displacement of populations.

But I would be outraged at the sight of the beheading of a soldier of my country's army, outraged by savages gathered under the banner of a religion they twist to their own ends, outraged by the sight of a young girl being flogged in a marketplace for a 'sin' she probably neither understood nor committed.

If it was my country I would remember why we fight.

 

[roadrunner]

I agree with the above statement.. The Army is just doing its job, if you really have a problem with the way its performing its operations take it to the higher authorities which is the PPP government which the people of Pakistan elected..

Till than let the Army do its job..

And to those who are severely worried about people being displaced because of Artillery shells.. would you honestly have them living under the Taliban control where they will be harrassed and be forced to live in a complete state of idiocracy or have them displaced for a few months and than allow them to get back and live their day to day 'normal' lives? .

There are scenarios where the Taliban is a preferred rule,even I would say for the Pakistan Army. Example Afghanistan in 1992 when there was no law. The Taliban were chosen to create some order in the area. It is true they were imperfect, but their law was better than no law. And to all those bleedin' liberal douchebags who say nothing could be worse than the Taliban, you try living in the tribal lands of FATA for a week as an experiment.

As for the bombing. I couldn't say whether it's a good thing or a bad one. If it actually achieves something, good. But I'm not optimistic. This tactic has been tried before. Never works in this sort of warfare.

On another subject I hear they're saying the Taliban in the area are not locals, but Persian speaking! If true, bad news, and they do need to be wiped out (not that I wish it on Persian speakers of course!). But I think it's a nonsense story. They're locals. I never heard of Persians being able to invade and hold Pashtun majority territory.