Pakistan will implode if the US does not leave Afghanistan

[SMC]

Loans from IMF and World bnk are "Indirect Loans" from the USA.

By various "Aid Routes" Pakistan does get about USD 1.5 to USD 2.5 Billion annually from the USA which I believe are considered as "Grants" i.e. they need not be re-paid.

The only aid we get from US that goes toward non-military stuff is 500m. You may have a point about IMF and World Bank. Nevertheless though, we've lost somewhere around 50-90 billion due to WoT. Which means anything we get is incomparable to what we've lost due to WoT.

 

[DV RULES]

Pakistan will implode if the US does not leave Afghanistan

Musharraf then made a second mistake in sending the army into the tribal areas. Our own tribespeople immediately rose up in revolt. Rather than co-opting these people – and, remember, every man is armed – we made new enemies. Then along came the American drones to kill more of our people. Soon, the American "war on terror" was seen as a war on Islam by the majority of Pakistanis and certainly by the Pashtuns in the tribal areas. Terror and extremism intensified.
[/U].

That was not mistake to send troops in tribal area, in Musharraf presidency the international world forgot to say that Waziristan is part of our country and they used as independent state and the same situation raised at that moment with other tribal region so it was our national interest & strategically important to send troops & work with them against the enemies of Pakistan and it can’t be called as MISTAKE.

 

[SMC]

Question for Pakistanis. What do you guys say about separating FATA from Rest of the country? i.e. making it another state, or letting Afghanistan have it. Not much to lose, and a lot to gain.

 

[Hutchroy]

@Hutchroy,
As I said, none of the options are pretty. Yet the status quo is not working at all. Not at all.
I also think, as @Speaker hints at, there is the 800 lbs gorilla in the room called Kashmir. Much of the reluctance of Pakistani military to go after these militants is the Kashmir issue. Indeed, in some NY Times Comments, a few perceptive Americans manage to point out that the road to Kabul lies through Kashmir.

So what can Pakistani army achieve if Pakistan has at least interim peace with India? I think the army can really beat the crap out of these religious fanatics as it did in Swat when it suited the military. This will be easier (not easy, btw) to do throughout Pakistan if the military and the ruling political parties are not delegitimized as 'American Puppet'. Whether we like it or not, it is the perception and vile propaganda which rules Pakistan. Too many 'educated' idiots still believe that Taseer himself committed some kind of Blasphemy, as an example.

About your assertion that there is widespread inroads by Jihadis in the security apparatuses, I am not sure that is correct. May be. May be not. But these fanatics are certainly sustained by the perception that the Pakistani military ('Busharraf') and the ruling parties are doing America's work.

Also, for Americans, the Al Qaida is decimated in Afghanistan. The original 9/11 plotters were successful by being in western countries. So it should be a task of counter-terrorism instead of carpet bombing.

Please keep up your “Conflict” with India to gain the 800 lbs gorilla in the room called Kashmir.

This may take Pakistan Five or Ten or Fifty Years and during this period the Pakistani People as well as its Armed Forces will become more and more Radicalized in the Religious sense.

In a decade or so Pakistan will, like Iran, become a full fledged Theocracy.

In the meantime Pakistan’s Economy will have to bear the cost of this “Conflict”

With Chinese “Hanization” of Xinjiang in due course these fanatics will definitely be sustained by the perception that the Pakistani military and the ruling parties are doing China’s work.

What Pakistan, in my opinion, needs is a robust group of Manufacturing Industries i.e. Automobile, Railway Rolling Stock, Steel, other base metals, Pharmaceuticals, Consumer White goods, etc. and in addition spend its limited Resources on Development of Education, Health, Infrastructure and Welfare for its People.

With this Development Pakistan will be able to be an Equal of India in comparison with the Size of its Population although I feel that eventually Pakistan will be better off on a Per Capita Basis if it concentrates on the Developments for its and its Peoples Benefits.

Best of Luck.

 

[Hutchroy]

Question for Pakistanis. What do you guys say about separating FATA from Rest of the country? i.e. making it another state, or letting Afghanistan have it. Not much to lose, and a lot to gain.

Whatever the cost, Pakistan's Territorial Integrity MUST be maintained.

Just my two bits!

 

[DV RULES]

SMS.Question for Pakistanis. What do you guys say about separating FATA from Rest of the country? i.e. making it another state, or letting Afghanistan have it. Not much to lose, and a lot to gain.

I don't know what are you talking about, just think again about your words.

Countries fight, struggle, go on debates, negotiate only to save country's territory with desires to get in control more other areas and you are talking about to separate the most important part of Pakistan?

Can't understand yours logic & aim.

 

[Speaker]

Please keep up your “Conflict” with India to gain the 800 lbs gorilla in the room called Kashmir.

This may take Pakistan Five or Ten or Fifty Years and during this period the Pakistani People as well as its Armed Forces will become more and more Radicalized in the Religious sense.

In a decade or so Pakistan will, like Iran, become a full fledged Theocracy.

In the meantime Pakistan’s Economy will have to bear the cost of this “Conflict”

With Chinese “Hanization” of Xinjiang in due course these fanatics will definitely be sustained by the perception that the Pakistani military and the ruling parties are doing China’s work.

What Pakistan, in my opinion, needs is a robust group of Manufacturing Industries i.e. Automobile, Railway Rolling Stock, Steel, other base metals, Pharmaceuticals, Consumer White goods, etc. and in addition spend its limited Resources on Development of Education, Health, Infrastructure and Welfare for its People.

With this Development Pakistan will be able to be an Equal of India in comparison with the Size of its Population although I feel that eventually Pakistan will be better off on a Per Capita Basis if it concentrates on the Developments for its and its Peoples Benefits.

Best of Luck.

Not sure if you understood his post. He was only stating facts and not endorsing them. Much of Pakistan's problems finds its root in Kashmir. And if you stretch your memory, we have suffered quite a bit because of that as well. It is better to suppress egos on both sides and declare the LOC as the international border. No point in pretending either side has the ability or enthusiasm to fight for what is controlled by the other. Just get done with the borders, manage the respective territories, and stay out of each other's way. If there is no scope for camaraderie, let's at least have a relationship like we have with China.

 

[SMC]

I don't know what are you talking about, just think again about your words.

Countries fight, struggle, go on debates, negotiate only to save country's territory with desires to get in control more other areas and you are talking about to separate the most important part of Pakistan?

Can't understand yours logic & aim.

Dude, think about positives and negatives of this. FATA is pretty much separate from rest of Pakistan. There's FATA, and then there's rest of Pakistan. FATA doesn't have anything that we need or want, but it's creating a lot of problems for us. Overall, there's a lot to be gained from this.

 

[PeacefulIndian]

Dude, think about positives and negatives of this. FATA is pretty much separate from rest of Pakistan. There's FATA, and then there's rest of Pakistan. FATA doesn't have anything that we need or want, but it's creating a lot of problems for us. Overall, there's a lot to be gained from this.

I was going to post about the same thing, but didn't as I thought I would be banned or something. Now that it is coming from a Pakistani, that's a reasonable solution to look at. Just about 4% of land, 1.5% of economy, 2.5% population and causing 100% trouble to economy. May be best way is to have Afghanistan to have it & let US do bombings there to kill terrorists.

 

[logic]

Let us not forget that the Americans are there not to help Afghans or Pakistanis but because of 9/11. They will leave Afghanistan when they are convinced another 9/11 won't originate from that area. They really don't care what the Afghani or Pakistani public opinion is.

The culprits on 9/11 were from the ME and were trained in Germany and US as suggest by the official version, now the question is do you go round bombing and invading Germany US and the M.E.

There is not a single Pakistani or Afghan citizen linked with the 9/11attrocities.

Pakistan and Nepal are very similar in one distinct way.
Just as a Nepali Gurkha do the dirty work for the British Pakistan does the same for US

 

[Meengla]

Not sure if you understood his post. He was only stating facts and not endorsing them. Much of Pakistan's problems finds its root in Kashmir. And if you stretch your memory, we have suffered quite a bit because of that as well.

Thank you for clarifying. I don't know why @Hutchroy thought that I was for a perpetual conflict with India.

We may be getting off-topic but just as it is in Pakistan's interest to have a stable, prosperous Afghanistan it is in India's interest to have a prosperous, stable Pakistan. IMHO, there can 't be two opinions about it. Your neighbors are most important. This is not even some Rodney King like 'Why can't we all just get along?' simplicity. It is just common sense.

Specifically and personally, as a blue-blooded Pakistani, it is hard for me to accept LOC=IB especially when I see evidence of a significant estrangement inside Indian-held Kashmir. This is not my call to make though. HOWEVER, if the Indian PM Manmohan's 'Borders can be made irrelevant' and that 'within Indian constitutional limits, the sky is the limit' as far as the autonomy for Kashmiris is concerned then I am quite open to any ideas.

What cannot be allowed to happen is that the whole 'mainstream' Pakistani society becomes radicalized because of Kashmir. What cannot be allowed to happen is that India uses the waters out of Kashmir as some strategic weapon. On the latter, I am hopeful that that will not happen because of severe consequences for not only Pakistan but also India eventually.

Enough rambling thoughts by me. But I finish it off by saying that Taseer's murder and the subsequent cheering of the killer has been a tectonic event for me. And I am not the only one who are beginning to question so much which we held as the final truths.

 

[Speaker]

Specifically and personally, as a blue-blooded Pakistani, it is hard for me to accept LOC=IB especially when I see evidence of a significant estrangement inside Indian-held Kashmir. This is not my call to make though. HOWEVER, if the Indian PM Manmohan's 'Borders can be made irrelevant' and that 'within Indian constitutional limits, the sky is the limit' as far as the autonomy for Kashmiris is concerned then I am quite open to any ideas.

What cannot be allowed to happen is that the whole 'mainstream' Pakistani society becomes radicalized because of Kashmir. What cannot be allowed to happen is that India uses the waters out of Kashmir as some strategic weapon. On the latter, I am hopeful that that will not happen because of severe consequences for not only Pakistan but also India eventually.

Meengla, I won't be the first person to say that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest. Since you are a respectable member with a lot of perspective and logic, let me just assuage a few of your concerns. First of all, the "significant estrangement" is somewhat overblown by the media. No one is denying that there is resentment, but not to the level shown by the media on both sides. There have been independent reports (quoted multiple times by EjazR) that not all Kashmiris feel that resentment. Barring a few Muslims, concentrated around the valley, the majority are fine with being a part of India (Azadi of course being the preferred option for the valley Muslims). However, most Kashmiris are reluctant to be a part of Pakistan. As it is an issue of Kashmir - not of religion - then all parties should have their say. It also means that Kashmir is not directly Pakistan's problem. We all know the only reason Pakistan supports "azadi" is because of the many Muslims in the state. Not for a second does anyone care for the other groups. That is unacceptable and unfortunate. All said, it is an issue that India has to solve politically, socially and diplomatically. But Pakistan needs to help us by staying away from it.

As for the "water terrorism" accusations, I would really appreciate if you provide some proof or source. Even after a clarification from your Foreign Minister (no less), I see that the trolls on this forums have influenced people like you to think that it is true.

 

[mehru]

Dude, think about positives and negatives of this. FATA is pretty much separate from rest of Pakistan. There's FATA, and then there's rest of Pakistan. FATA doesn't have anything that we need or want, but it's creating a lot of problems for us. Overall, there's a lot to be gained from this.

No sir. The reason they are going through this chaos is the very same attitude. Attitude of indifference. We should not alienate them anymore. Need of the hour is to integrate them. Just because insurgency is going on in FATA, it doesn't mean that we should abandon them. They need our help. I think we will gain more by integrating them in the mainstream Pakistan.

 

[Meengla]

@Speaker,
I am not sure I agree with your interpretation of only 'a few Kashmiri Muslims' of the Valley being estranged. In this context, while I can certainly understand the Pakistani media being of a certain pro-Pakistan projection I doubt the Indian media--very partial and one-sided when it comes to Pakistan-- is out to magnify the 'estrangement'.
We have heard each other on it, I think.
About the water issues, I am not saying I am convinced that India will try to choke off Pakistan. What I said above was a qualified statement--it was just missing an 'IF' in it. At any rate, after the Flood of 2010, I think Pakistan can certainly better use the water it already gets. There are many ways to alleviate the water problems in Pakistan by reducing wastage.

What I want us to do is to look toward the future. I can see huge 'peace dividends' which can generate a lot of economic activity in Pakistan and India. With enough new/freed resources and peace, sky is the limit for Pakistan. I also repeat that Pakistani security establishment has the power to crush these pseudo-Islamists when given enough resources and time. Indian role is pivotal in these equations.


In this connection, here is an interesting article. If the Indian FM's views are authentic then there is more cause for hope.

The Hindu : News / National : India, Pakistan cannot live in perpetual tension: Pranab

“Most of us will agree that we cannot wish away our neighbours. We can choose our friends, we can be selective in choosing our friends....But neighbours are there where they are. I cannot simply wish them away. Those days are gone when one could have displaced them by force,” Mr. Mukherjee said.

Describing Pakistan as India’s “most important” neighbour, he said, “The stability and well—being of Pakistan” is in the interest of this country as the two could not develop and prosper in isolation today.

“The basic question before every Indian policy—maker is whether we should live with our neighbour in perpetual tension or try to live in peace. And fortunately, there is a broad consensus across the political spectrum on these issues,” Mr. Mukherjee said.

 

[Developereo]

Dude, think about positives and negatives of this. FATA is pretty much separate from rest of Pakistan. There's FATA, and then there's rest of Pakistan. FATA doesn't have anything that we need or want, but it's creating a lot of problems for us. Overall, there's a lot to be gained from this.

We do not give up on difficult problems and walk away. We solve them.

It is one of the worst blunders of Pakistan government since inception that we allowed this autonomy to exist in the first place. A government that cannot assert its legitimacy within its own country's borders cannot complain when others violate it.