Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

[KS]

I was trying to say india had become more like a humiliating name during brits time and nehru should chosen something indigenous and not something meaning slavery

And who in the whole wide world thinks the name India means slavery ? The name India was there long before the Brits (Anglo-Saxons if you prefer) started wearing clothes on their bodies. India is as indigenous as indigenous can get.

 

[53fd]

It is true! You are taught that your history starts with Bin Qasim.

No, we are taught that we are/our region is encompassed in the Indus Valley Civilization.

 

[TheStrantrunCurve]

who says you are the people of the indus.

people of the entire indian subcontinent who lived beyond the indus river were referred to as indians which includes modern day indians and pakistanis .

If some of those indians decided to call themselves pakistani for some reason does not mean that all other indians are also obligated to change their name.

again read an unbiased history book froma non pakistani source.

Sir,

I have read more than enough, I disagree with you land east indus is India, lets not use india and use hindustaan instead, because the brits couldn't pronounce Hindustaan so they called the whole south asia as India instead.
All the muslims rulers be they ghauris, tughlaqs, Mughals, khiljis used hindustaan, No where is India used by south asians before brits arrival

Now how how does punjab, gujrat and bengal become hindustaan. The punjab, bengal indentity is much older than hindustaani. The punjabi culture starts with indus valley civilization 5000 years ago while the hindustani culture arose around arose 1000 years ago. It would be correct to say hindustani culture arose out of punjabi culture.

The name hindustaan only became popular after Ghauris invasion
Note punjab was already occupied by Mamud Ghazni in 1000 AD and was never called Hindustaan. Punjab has been the frontier of Hindustaan but not the hindustaan proper. Of course different people throughout the last 10 centururies used the term Hindustan for different geographic region. Babur used the word hindustaan for whole south asia even pushtun areas but the fact remain half of pakistani punjab trace ancesrtry from middle east, central asia, such as sayyed, qureshi, Arrain, Awan, Ghakkhar, Khokkhar. It is only the rajput and Jats which can be called Indian.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

No matter what Indians try to prove Pakistan is now part of Muslims and Insallah one day it will be ruled according to Islam.
And oh. T-ban is a b@stard child of CIA and the Islam they promote is nothing but a tool to destroy the name of Islam.

About the Taliban in the underlined part above; you only talk about the Father, but seem to have overlooked mentioning the Mother?

 

[53fd]

There are many deobandis in India , this school f thought originated in medieval india of which most of pakistan was a part , how come there is a Taliban in afghanistan and Pakistan but none in India ?

Has India had 2 huge wars in its neighboring country in the past 15 years, especially in the first one when the "Mujahideen" were regarded as heroes by the US & the West? What is the definition of a Taliban may I ask you? Is the Taliban even one specific group? Do you know that there are even factions within the Taliban (Haqqani group, Quetta Shoora, TSNM, Sufi Mohammad Group, Mullah Nazir Group, Wazir Group) etc? I would argue there is no such thing as an entity called Taliban. It is more 'region & tribe oriented' than anything. Just like there is Indian Mujahideen & SIMI in India.

 

[EjazR]

There is a difference between the top leadership and a "non-person's" words and actions. As far as I am concerned, the Deoband Ulema leadership has only recently started condemning actions, when they started feeling threatened that it would be closed down, for their own sake, not for the sake of Indian Muslims. It never condemned the actions of SIMI and the IM, and has aided "extremist ideology" into these groups in the past that committed violence in India.

Again, its not the first time they have condemend this. They were also against the use of the term Jihad in Afghanistan even thought they were against Soviet invasion. They had opposed the Taliban ideology and asked them to moderate their stance back in 1996 when the Taliban held a conference in Jalalabad. And it has condemened numerous times the actions of SIMI and IM. This is the reason why SIMI which had gained a following after the 1992 Babri masjid riots and Gujarat riots eventually lost its support base. Again a quote from the SIMI chief which you ignored.

Jihad does not sell anymore: SIMI chief - Mumbai - DNA
MUMBAI: Jihadis are making little headway in garnering support for their cause among Muslims in the Indian mainstream. And the chief of the rump Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), Safdar Nagouri, is so disheartened by the lack of response that he recently startled police interrogators by telling them he had become disillusioned with the concept of jihad. He added that since the latter part of 2007 he had even been thinking of deserting SIMI.
Nagouri, along with his more hardline deputy Shibly Pedicaal Abdul, were arrested in Indore by the Madhya Pradesh police on March 27. The two are being interrogated by the Maharashtra anti-terrorism squad (ATS) and the intelligence agencies here on their involvement in the July 2006 Mumbai train bombings.

State ATS chief Hemant Karkare says "His interactions with ordinary Muslims may have had wrought these changes in his fundamentalist worldview. Nagouri got somewhat disenchanted with jihad and the Islamist cause around the later months of last year."

According to ATS officials, the radical ideologue, who is linked to some of the deadliest terror hits around the country, now believes SIMI is losing its sway among Indian Muslims. Nagouri had conveyed his reading of the situation to the organisation no 2 and his chief recruiter Shibly.

"The splintering of the parent organisation and SIMI's growing disconnect with the larger Muslim community may have shocked Nagouri," said an intelligence official closely associated with the interrogation. Interrogators, however, found Shibly a much tougher nut to crack.

Officials quoted Nagouri as admitting that ordinary Muslims were averse to being indoctrinated and were found to have firmly pitted themselves against terrorism and the
idea of a global jihad in the name of Islam.

"Nagouri and Shibly also detailed how their tailored attempts at recruiting young Muslims for jihad were frustrated by members of an 'unwilling' community," said a senior intelligence official.

Security officials believe Nagouri's confessions might go a long way in significantly altering popular perceptions about Indian Muslim youth being all too vulnerable to the processes of radicalisation.

However, records showed Nagouri had visited the city days ahead of the July 2006 blasts - also presiding over a couple of secret meetings attended by jihadist operatives of radical terror groups.

Security officials also asserted that SIMI had all along provided ready-made cadres to Pakistan-sponsored jihadi groups such as the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Mohammad.

SIMI got ideological support from Jamaat Islami. Jamaat-Islami-Hind broker away from SIMI when they did not listen to them and they then connected to JI in Pakistan and Qazi Hussain Ahmed. These are from SIMI chief's own interview.

Both these groups are fringe militant groups. Some of them have even been accused of not being "Itna-Ashra". The main leadership body for Shias in Pakistan is the Tehreek-e-Jafaria, & everyone follows them. Dar-uloom Deoband is a mainstream body that represents a huge majority of Muslims in India, & it had not condemned violence by IM & SIMI in the past. It has only started doing so after it starting feeling threatened.

Again false statements, I don't know what you are trying to proove here. Do you seriously think that if Deoband disappeared tommorow in India, Pakistan will be all fine and dandy? Like I mentioned earlier, Deoband has extensively condemened terrorism not just SIMI but by any groups including Pakistani based terrorists groups as well as international terrorists groups like Al Qaeda. Its only a matter of wether you want to know about it or not.

Pakistan has not been accused of forming the Afghan Taliban in 1996. Pakistan's ISI & the CIA formed the Mujahideen group in the '80s that consisted of Mullah Umar, Hekmetyar, Ahmad Shah Masood & other people. The Afghan Taliban, Hizb-e-Gulbudeen and the Northern Alliance were the off-shoot of the Mujahideen. Pakistan even supported Ahmed Shah Masood and Hekmetyar (non-Taliban) against Dostum & Najibullah. The ethnic Afghans (Mullah Umar, Haqqani) formed the Taliban, not Pakistan. The role of Pakistan's involvement has never been proven. Quote me one statement by a major international official or Pakistani official that says "Pakistan formed the Taliban, & supports it". They say stuff like "Pakistan should do more. Pakistan hasn't done enough". Not doing enough does not mean Pakistan formed the Taliban or supports it in anyway. It is only hearsay & speculation by journalists.

Please do read through the declassfied NSA archive documents in the Taliban. The Taliban may have formed by itself but its support and eventual takeover of Afghanistan was fully supported by Pakistani intelligence. Do read up on Saleem Safi's interviews as well including ex-ISI officials like Col Imam and Khalid Khwaja who detail the same including how the present day TTP members were all supported by the intelligence establishment as well
Pakistan: "The Taliban's Godfather"?

Pakistan has a lot of stakes in Kashmir, because it considers it it's rightful land. If India hadn't been indiscriminately killing Kashmiri people, they wouldn't see the radicalization of the Kashmiri people. You reap what you sow my friend.

Maybe true, but don't call it Jihad as it is not such.

Prove to me that Pakistan is still involved in Kashmir. You are talking about the past my friend. Pakistan isn't calling it Jihad, the local Kashmiri people are.

Are you telling me that LeT and JuD and ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul have not held rallies about Jihad against India? Its about how this rhetoric radicalises Pakistanis. These rallies and rhetoric and demonisation of India is what results in radicalisation not the Deobandi school of thought.

The Kashmiri people clearly have no trust in the Indian Muslim leadership, as they see them as puppets to the Indian regime. The reason for this is that the Indian Muslim leadership has not condemned the terrorism committed by the Indian Army against them.

Offtopic but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Would do better for you to educate of yourself with was is happening in India rather than relying on Pakistani propaganda. If you had read the statements from Indian Muslims and Indians in general, you would know what is being done for Kashmiri muslims. Much more than what Pakistan has done I may add.

Most students of the IM were "educated" in, & followed the Deobandi ideology of the Dar-uloom Deoband. Which is where they got radicalized from. I clearly know the differences between Deobandis, Salafis/Ahle-Hadis/Wahabis, Barelvis etc. Just to make it clear, the Afghan Taliban is Deobandi, Al-Qaeda is Salafi, the TTP is a mixture of Deobandi & Salafi. If you want me to explain all of this, I gladly will. It doesn't matter whether their or SIMI's actions are condemened (out of fear of being shut down) or not by the Dar uloom Deoband, the fact that most of the students/fighters got radicalized from their ideology just shows how dangerous they are. Without the Dar-Uloom Deoband in India, there would never have been a Taliban today. Fact.

Again, Barelvi shia group does a terrorist act and he is a zealot or fringe group but if a "Deobandi" group does it then its because of its "ideology". By the way Deoband had even recently again reiterated that Taliban actions were UnIslamic and this was when they were visiting Pakistan. So much for top leaders "not condemning" Taliban.
Deoband ulema term all Taliban actions un-Islamic

And the Taliban would not be there had the Pakistani ISI not funded the extremist groups to take over Afghanistan and had instead of interefering in other countries internal affairs kept its hand to itself.
Fact.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Sir,

I have read more than enough, I disagree with you land east indus is India, lets not use india and use hindustaan instead, because the brits couldn't pronounce Hindustaan so they called the whole south asia as India instead.
All the muslims rulers be they ghauris, tughlaqs, Mughals, khiljis used hindustaan, No where is India used by south asians before brits arrival

Now how how does punjab, gujrat and bengal become hindustaan. The punjab, bengal indentity is much older than hindustaani. The punjabi culture starts with indus valley civilization 5000 years ago while the hindustani culture arose around arose 1000 years ago. It would be correct to say hindustani culture arose out of punjabi culture.

The name hindustaan only became popular after Ghauris invasion
Note punjab was already occupied by Mamud Ghazni in 1000 AD and was never called Hindustaan. Punjab has been the frontier of Hindustaan but not the hindustaan proper. Of course different people throughout the last 10 centururies used the term Hindustan for different geographic region. Babur used the word hindustaan for whole south asia even pushtun areas but the fact remain half of pakistani punjab trace ancesrtry from middle east, central asia, such as sayyed, qureshi, Arrain, Awan, Ghakkhar, Khokkhar. It is only the rajput and Jats which can be called Indian.

You need to read a lot about history son , punjab is part of india as well .

Indus valley civilisation also encompasses gujarat , indian punjab , rajasthan , jammu , haryana and recently a site has also been excavated in western uttar pradesh . Google alamgirpur it is in western uttar pradesh .

That entire post fails due to your faulty knowledge of history. Use the internet man . what is it for ?

I guess you just dont want to learn .

And btw the word india was used first by the greeks not by the brits.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Has India had 2 huge wars in its neighboring country in the past 15 years, especially in the first one when the "Mujahideen" were regarded as heroes by the US & the West? What is the definition of a Taliban may I ask you? Is the Taliban even one specific group? Do you know that there are even factions within the Taliban (Haqqani group, Quetta Shoora, TSNM, Sufi Mohammad Group, Mullah Nazir Group, Wazir Group) etc? I would argue there is no such thing as an entity called Taliban. It is more 'region & tribe oriented' than anything. Just like there is Indian Mujahideen & SIMI in India.

IM and SIMI by the way are the same thing. The truth is that there is no taliban proper that has prospered in India and a group like IM in terms of strength can not in any way be compared to the strength of groups like the afghan taliban and the TTP .

 

[luckyyy]

waekup , it seem these type of articles will never let you came out from 1947..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

About the Taliban in the underlined part above; you only talk about the Father, but seem to have overlooked mentioning the Mother?

Mother is India.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Mother is India.

Then who was the midwife?

 

[monitor]

Then who was the midwife?

The hindu extremist .

 

[BoseDK]

HINDU IS TOLERANT. AN "EXTREMIST" HINDU WILL BE EXTREMELY TOLERANT.

 

[monitor]

We have already seen How ''TOLERANT'' they are

 

[53fd]

SIMI got ideological support from Jamaat Islami. Jamaat-Islami-Hind broker away from SIMI when they did not listen to them and they then connected to JI in Pakistan and Qazi Hussain Ahmed. These are from SIMI chief's own interview.

I see you have not provided any links. BLA leader Brahamdagh Bugti had also claimed numerous times that he accepted assistance from India and Afghanistan to defend the Baloch nationalist cause. Leaders of Baloch insurgencies have publicly listed India among their sponsors.

Again false statements, I don't know what you are trying to proove here.

What false statements did I make? The 2 shia militant groups are fringe groups, and the main Shia body in Pakistan is the Tehreek-e-Jafria. Show me statements made by the Dar uloom Deoband against the actions of the Indian Mujahideen, or from 30 years ago condemning the terrorism committed by SIMI. Please post the links of the statements from top Dar-uloom Deoband condemning the terrorism of IM. Pakistan has been alleged to be involved with SIMI on some level, the important word is alleged. There is no hard evidence to back up the claim. Circumstantial evidence is meaningless. Dar Uloom is active in criticizing only those incidents that have alleged Pakistani links to them.

Do you seriously think that if Deoband disappeared tommorow in India, Pakistan will be all fine and dandy?

Yes, I think it will solve half the problems of India & Pakistan. Like I said, if Dar-ul-Uloom Deoband had never existed, the Taliban would have never existed. It's as simple as that my friend.

Like I mentioned earlier, Deoband has extensively condemened terrorism not just SIMI but by any groups including Pakistani based terrorists groups as well as international terrorists groups like Al Qaeda. Its only a matter of wether you want to know about it or not.

Deoband wants to score brownie points in front of the Indian people & the government by condemning terrorism ALLEGEDLY coming from Pakistan. An anti-Pakistan stance will serve them brownie points. You have admitted yourself that SIMI got ideological support from Jamaat-e-Islami Hind in India. The JI Pakistan is a registered party, Qazi Hussein Ahmed is free from any blame, he hasn't been indicted in anyway. So again, you rely on your constant habit of quoting hearsay & your fairytale thoughts.

Please do read through the declassfied NSA archive documents in the Taliban. The Taliban may have formed by itself but its support and eventual takeover of Afghanistan was fully supported by Pakistani intelligence.

They talk about what they think & "believe in", just like you had intelligence documents that claimed Iraq had WMDs.

Do read up on Saleem Safi's interviews as well including ex-ISI officials like Col Imam and Khalid Khwaja who detail the same including how the present day TTP members were all supported by the intelligence establishment as well

This is not evidence my friend, but their personal opinions of a man who does not have any level or position in the ISI. How does Saleem Safi substantiate his claims? How can we even claim the sources of his claims to be valid, even after they have been proven? It's like Alex Jones & Webster Tarpley, & Michael Moore conclusively proving 9/11 was a false flag operation, a hoax. If you call this your evidence, I am extremely sad for you. I was asking you for statements from high ranking officials, & all you could come up with was Saleem Safi.

Maybe true, but don't call it Jihad as it is not such.

The local Kashmiri people call it. They can call it whatever they want.

Are you telling me that LeT and JuD and ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul have not held rallies about Jihad against India?

I've already commented on Kashmir being a disputed territory, not Indian territory, something Pakistan fully claims. Let's leave at that about Kashmir. It has different circumstances. If India hadn't been massacring Kashmiris since 1947, Kashmiris would never have been radicalized. And that's my personal opinion. Let's leave it at that about Kashmir.

Offtopic but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Would do better for you to educate of yourself with was is happening in India rather than relying on Pakistani propaganda.

Admit it, you clearly didn't know what you were talking about when you started talking about Shia militancy in Pakistan. You clearly didn't give any factual, conclusive, substantiative evidence quoting any high ranking official in the world that says "the Pakistani government/intelligence supports the Taliban." You quoted a regular TV man (instead of a high ranking official) who's claims cannot be validated as your source of factual, conclusive, substantiative proof.

Again, Barelvi shia group does a terrorist act and he is a zealot or fringe group but if a "Deobandi" group does it then its because of its "ideology".

Again, you have not provided any official condemnations against SIMI from the 1976-1980's, statements made by Dar-uloom Deoband condemning the violence of SIMI. You say Dar-uloom Deoband has condemned the terrorism against the IM, but you have not provided me with one statement that says that the "Indian Mujahideen are committing terrorism inside India, & it should be stopped." I want that one specific statement my friend. I have proven that Mumtaz Qadri, the killer of Salman Taseer was not a religious man, he had affairs with women before marriage, & specifically a girl from Karachi. Tahir ul Qadri & Ghamdi have condemned the man on national TV. I've explained to you how Shias, Hindus, Ahmedis, Christians, Sikhs, Parsis, Ismailis, Bahais & other groups have lived peacefully & full authority & freedom amongst a majority Barelvi society. You quote a one-off event, that too by a person that wasn't religious & specifically condemned by religious Barelvi clergy is really nothing to talk about.

By the way Deoband had even recently again reiterated that Taliban actions were UnIslamic and this was when they were visiting Pakistan. So much for top leaders "not condemning" Taliban.

Please provide the exact statements that specifically say that the "Taliban actions were un-Islamic". I want these specific words my friend. Zakir Naik even refused to call Osama Bin Laden wrong or a terrorist on public TV.

And the Taliban would not be there had the Pakistani ISI not funded the extremist groups to take over Afghanistan and had instead of interefering in other countries internal affairs kept its hand to itself.

Again, you are repeating hearsay and speculation by journalists that claim that the ISI funds extremist groups. Quote me any high ranking official in the world that explicitly says the following phrase: "ISI funds extremist groups in Afghanistan". I want that exact phrase quoted by a high ranking official. And the source quoting that high ranking official must be validated & verified for its authencity.

Check and mate.