Pakistan warns India: don't make provocative remarks

[Windjammer]

Head back, read my comments on these topics bro. I take stupidity as it is.

But when will you?

Recall the tail of Mig 21? And what my comments were when you first posted it? I accept my fools and their foolish attempts. When will you?

So let me get this right, you see no difference between what can be put as fog of war and a purposely created and mounted gate guardian to fool the generations and remaining oblivious and ignorant to both the blunder and the propaganda.

 

[Sam.]

@long_ @wanglaokan

Guys can you help me understand this one, please?

Let me also tag the professionals

@Irfan Baloch @jhungary @gambit


Also, @notorious_eagle @CriticalThought

They are master of deception , they fooled everyone in Afghanistan so i bow down to their shrewdness hoping it is because of Bania blood in them.

 

[Hellfire]

So let me get this right, you see no difference between what can be put as fog of war and a purposely created and mounted gate guardian to fool the generations and remaining oblivious and ignorant to both the blunder and the propaganda.

So let me get this straight, you see no problem in perpetuating 'the fog of war' by:

a) posting Sexton (SPG operated by Pakistan Army, Unit 44 (SP) in 1965) as posted by member at Serial No 4 of the post as under:

b) 25 Pounders (also operated by Pakistan Army) by your esteemed self:

c) a page of book (as you have posted recently, knowing, perhaps, fully well, that No 6 Squadron was involved in air raids in what we now call as Delhi NCR-Agra belt in 1965) from a claimed clip?

What say @Windjammer ?

Anyways, catch you later, off for winters

May i?

By all means. Can I stop you?

Is you argument based on the point that since these tanks are not damaged the pictures are not of war time captured tanks?

No, I posted the picture clearly. Can very well be simple posed photograph and an attempt to propagate something which is not there. The tanks crew? Full complement? Standing on it? Captured? I think not.

This is unfair hellfire and not expect from you. When have you or any of your friends been banned for such a post?

No, that is unfair of you, @Slav Defence and @The Eagle , to forget when you guys banned me for outing the False Flag @Dhara, for a month, a self claimed SIKH Regiment officer, who could not answer a basic question, which any officer of that time period could have, on Infantry Regiments of Indian Army. How could he, when he was masquerading and had someone backing?

You need to revisit that segment my dear @Arsalan , because I took up the matter in GHQ, but there was silence after @Slav Defence assured a relook I am merely cautioning the member - not to mess with the larger agenda at play.

But sir we definitely won that war
India wanted to capture Pakistan
And its Generals wanted to take a tea in a Lahore hotel and we failed them by defending our country and also capturing their land
They retreated v not Sir..........

@Irfan Baloch All the best sir. Those now remain the military objectives

@JohnWick

Respected Sir. Am only trying to nudge you to use your higher faculties and post after due deliberations.

Your favorite, of course, is as under:

i see Massive trucks and vehicles these recent days of army. i see Flights of Helicopters. too many to count. i think somehting is up on LOC. i live in Muzaffarabad azad kashmir. too much troop movment. Something is up on kashmir front.

Yeah. Winters are setting in. Troop rotation, turnover of the units and stocking of rations and ammunition, fuel?

 

[Joe Shearer]

there is fully intact army Jeep of an Indian General in Army Museum in Pindi as well but that too can be questioned as a propaganda.

Nissan Jonga, not Jeep.

However, pictures on display (not having seen the original exhibit) show a Jeep - either Harbaksh was misinformed, or there was some creative re-construction.

That's a well-known and very sad case: utterly disgraceful - the usual reaction to this incident among Indians is of incoherent fury, but we need to understand the context as well.

During WWII, he was an RIAF pilot. After the war, he transferred to the Army, and then had the bad luck to be shot up in 1962. In those days, they didn't have any idea about PTSD; Patton could get away with slapping a shell-shocked GI. He should have been put out to grass then and there, like the two brothers Pathania should have, but in those days, it was all about exoneration of everybody who survived and was at general rank, on the grounds that the whipping boy Kaul and the poisonous Monty Palit were responsible for the debacle, and nobody else was to be blamed (Monty was one of the unsung villains of 1962; his book on the proceedings has to be read with the understanding that this was a self-vindication exercise). This was Muchu Chaudhuri's policy, and it is fair to say that it was needed in the circumstances; the morale of the Indian Army was at an all-time low, and the enormous casualty rate among units that fought to the end only underlined the command failure.

That brings us to 1965.

Niranjan Prasad had risen to Major General by then, due to this policy of shielding all concerned with the mess except for the selected victims, and commanded 15 Div. The actual situation is best described in the words of Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh:

I was stunned to receive this message and asked Brigadier Parkash to let the General Officer Commanding 15 Division know that he would not move back an inch from where he was, and that I and the Corps Commander were coming to meet him. I drove the Jonga in which we travelled. It was not long before we saw the havoc that the enemy air had caused on the GT Road. Vehicles were burning here and there, while there were craters on the road, and enemy aircraft were still flying over head. We saw 15 Division Administrative Echelon vehicles abandoned on the road, the drivers having run away, leaving some of the engines still running. We saw an armoured carrier standing in the middle of the road, with its keys still in it. I had it removed off the road. We were directed by the Divisional Military Police to the General Officer Commanding, Major General Niranjan Prasad, who was hiding in a recently irrigated sugarcane field! He came out to receive us, with his boots covered ‘with wet .

He had no head-cover, nor was he wearing any badges of rank. He had stubble on his face, not having shaved, contrary to the custom before the start of an operation. Seeing him in such a state, the first question I asked him was whether he was the General Officer Commanding a Division or a coolie? Why had he removed his badges of rank and not shaved, I asked? Of course, he had no answer. We were standing in the open, and, naturally, the men of his Headquarters had formed a circle around us, though at a distance. At one stage a couple of enemy fighter planes flew over head, strafing vehicles on the road, and Niranjan Prasad tried to pull me to safety under the cover of a bush nearby. I had to shout at him to explain that the enemy aircraft were not interested in us, nor could they see us. What they were after were his vehicles that had been abandoned the road, head-to-tail. I asked him where his reserve Brigade Commander was. He shouted: “Pathak, Pathak” and Pathak came to us.

I asked him where his men (F Group) were, and he answered that they were following, but they were inoperative, because they had suffered very heavy casualties from enemy aircraft. I, naturally, asked him how many casualties they had suffered, and he replied, “Nearly 30 wounded”. I said, “30 out of 4000 (the strength of his Brigade) and you say your Brigade was inoperative!” I asked him to pull himself together and then gave him his orders, on the map and on the ground, for the next phase of his for the next phase of his advance. He was to take his Brigade along the distributory, shown on the map, and on reaching the Ichhogil Canal, to turn left and re-capture the bridge on the GT Road near Dograi. In order to give his Divisional Commander another chance, I asked Niranjan Prasad to ”keep an eye on his Brigade, and report to his Corps Commander, in the morning, regarding the progress of the operations”.

I had known Niranjan Prasad for a long time. He had already, on two occasions, acquitted himself badly while commanding a Division. The first time was in NEFA and then later, while commanding 25 Infantry Division, at Rajouri. I was also aware that each time he had written a representation against his senior Commanders. I had found him deficient in command of 15 Infantry Division as early as June that year, and had said as much to General Chowdhary when he visited XI Corps during an Exercise. But the Chief chose to disregard my suggestion for according to him Niranjan Prasad had very close political connections with higher-ups in Delhi!

So, this time, sensing that I might remove him from command, General Niranjan Prasad had apparently already written out a representation against me in his note book which he kept in his brief case along with some other secret and confidential papers. I now state what was revealed in a Court of Inquiry which General Officer Commanding XI Corps ordered, to go into the circumstances that prevented General Niranjan Prasad from visiting his Reserve Brigade, under Brigadier Pathak, who had been ordered by me to carry out a certain operation, which Niranjan Prasad had been ordered to supervise. The story goes, that on the morning of the 7th of September, Niranjan Prasad sent for an officer to lead him to the Brigade’s position, and set off towards it along the distributory, which was marked on the map. He was in the Jonga in front, with his\ADC, while two jeeps, with his escort in them, were following him. As he progressed along the distributory, he was fired at by a distant Medium Machine Gun. Both he and his ADC abandoned the Jonga and took cover in a field of crops nearby, as did the escorts.

A little later, Niranjan Prasad decided to return to his Headquarters and asked that the last jeep be turned around for this purpose. Both he and his ADC took off in this jeep, leaving the escort to make their way back on foot. Thus he left the brief-case he was carrying, with all the papers in it in the Jonga, which apparently also had his formation flag and star plates on it. This Jonga, along with his brief-case (and papers) was subsequently captured by the Pakistanis, who started broadcasting the contents of his brief-case, including his representation against me over the air! On the basis of the proceedings of the Court of Inquiry, General Officer Commanding XI Corps wanted to try Niranjan Prasad by a Court Martial, but the Chief of the Army Staff, General Chowdhary, sent for Major General Niranjan Prasad, and, we later learnt, asked him to resign.

if this was indeed main Indian mission
on that narrative yes we won.

preventing them from having tea etc.

I have never found a direct attribution for this story, about tea - some accounts say cocktails - at the Lahore Gymkhana. As far as I could trace it, it has always been Pakistani sources quoting a story in the Amrita Bazar Patrika. Since that was an Indian newspaper, and published from Calcutta, and Muchu Chaudhuri was after all from a prominent family in Calcutta, I am not surprised that Pakistanis at large take it as gospel, and anchor their claims of victory on '...preventing them from having tea etc......' It's just that @Irfan Baloch did not strike me as the kind of effervescent fanboy that would run about shrieking out this story; he had, I thought, too much gravitas.

One lives and learns.

May i?

Is you argument based on the point that since these tanks are not damaged the pictures are not of war time captured tanks?



This is unfair hellfire and not expect from you. When have you or any of your friends been banned for such a post? If you think that GuruDutt was banned unfairly, well, i might not even know anything about you!


Its North Korea!!

I'm sorry, but this happened, and it was shocking to the sober elements among Indian members. @hellfire can tell you more.

It was a travesty of justice, and one of the minor reasons why I took time off from PDF.

 

[JohnWick]

So let me get this straight, you see no problem in perpetuating 'the fog of war' by:

a) posting Sexton (SPG operated by Pakistan Army, Unit 44 (SP) in 1965) as posted by member at Serial No 4 of the post as under:

View attachment 521856



b) 25 Pounders (also operated by Pakistan Army) by your esteemed self:

View attachment 521857

c) a page of book (as you have posted recently, knowing, perhaps, fully well, that No 6 Squadron was involved in air raids in what we now call as Delhi NCR-Agra belt in 1965) from a claimed clip?

View attachment 521858

What say @Windjammer ?

Anyways, catch you later, off for winters




By all means. Can I stop you?



No, I posted the picture clearly. Can very well be simple posed photograph and an attempt to propagate something which is not there. The tanks crew? Full complement? Standing on it? Captured? I think not.





No, that is unfair of you, @Slav Defence and @The Eagle , to forget when you guys banned me for outing the False Flag @Dhara, for a month, a self claimed SIKH Regiment officer, who could not answer a basic question, which any officer of that time period could have, on Infantry Regiments of Indian Army. How could he, when he was masquerading and had someone backing?

You need to revisit that segment my dear @Arsalan , because I took up the matter in GHQ, but there was silence after @Slav Defence assured a relook I am merely cautioning the member - not to mess with the larger agenda at play.





@Irfan Baloch All the best sir. Those now remain the military objectives

@JohnWick

Respected Sir. Am only trying to nudge you to use your higher faculties and post after due deliberations.

Your favorite, of course, is as under:

View attachment 521862




Yeah. Winters are setting in. Troop rotation, turnover of the units and stocking of rations and ammunition, fuel?

Yeah that

My favourite one
Yeah but this one is also my favorite

 

[Slav Defence]

So let me get this straight, you see no problem in perpetuating 'the fog of war' by:

a) posting Sexton (SPG operated by Pakistan Army, Unit 44 (SP) in 1965) as posted by member at Serial No 4 of the post as under:

View attachment 521856



b) 25 Pounders (also operated by Pakistan Army) by your esteemed self:

View attachment 521857

c) a page of book (as you have posted recently, knowing, perhaps, fully well, that No 6 Squadron was involved in air raids in what we now call as Delhi NCR-Agra belt in 1965) from a claimed clip?

View attachment 521858

What say @Windjammer ?

Anyways, catch you later, off for winters




By all means. Can I stop you?



No, I posted the picture clearly. Can very well be simple posed photograph and an attempt to propagate something which is not there. The tanks crew? Full complement? Standing on it? Captured? I think not.





No, that is unfair of you, @Slav Defence and @The Eagle , to forget when you guys banned me for outing the False Flag @Dhara, for a month, a self claimed SIKH Regiment officer, who could not answer a basic question, which any officer of that time period could have, on Infantry Regiments of Indian Army. How could he, when he was masquerading and had someone backing?

You need to revisit that segment my dear @Arsalan , because I took up the matter in GHQ, but there was silence after @Slav Defence assured a relook I am merely cautioning the member - not to mess with the larger agenda at play.





@Irfan Baloch All the best sir. Those now remain the military objectives

@JohnWick

Respected Sir. Am only trying to nudge you to use your higher faculties and post after due deliberations.

Your favorite, of course, is as under:

View attachment 521862




Yeah. Winters are setting in. Troop rotation, turnover of the units and stocking of rations and ammunition, fuel?

Dhara is banned
Regards

 

[xyxmt]

Hahahahahaha...we are scared

truth has a funny way to come out.

 

[Arsalan]

I'm sorry, but this happened, and it was shocking to the sober elements among Indian members. @hellfire can tell you more.

It was a travesty of justice, and one of the minor reasons why I took time off from PDF.

Sir you being back means something!! May be it means that it was not that bad, may be that it was better than others and that you still feel that it can work. Same goes for Hellfire. Still, if this is not the case, we cannot hope to make things better by acting worst, can we? No matter what the situation, all we can do is keep putting in our efforts for improvement (and no, i am not talking about India-Pakistan relations, you know it )

By all means. Can I stop you?

Hey, just try asking!! You will be surprised!!

No, I posted the picture clearly. Can very well be simple posed photograph and an attempt to propagate something which is not there. The tanks crew? Full complement? Standing on it? Captured? I think not.

You think not, the history books and articles think yes. These are known facts dear, some of our equipment was caught by Indians in different sectors, whats so surprising in it. The guns, the tanks, its real!! I guess it not that simple and easy in heat of war.

No, that is unfair of you, @Slav Defence and @The Eagle , to forget when you guys banned me for outing the False Flag @Dhara, for a month, a self claimed SIKH Regiment officer, who could not answer a basic question, which any officer of that time period could have, on Infantry Regiments of Indian Army. How could he, when he was masquerading and had someone backing?
You need to revisit that segment my dear @Arsalan , because I took up the matter in GHQ, but there was silence after @Slav Defence assured a relook I am merely cautioning the member - not to mess with the larger agenda at play.

Well actually i was not a MOD back then so i really cannot say what happened. But the two guys you named here, well you know as well as i do that they do not come more neutral than that!! You know, you have experience on other forums as well.

AND as far as i know, that Dhara character was banned soon after you made your case.

 

[Joe Shearer]

how did a thread where one country tells another to not make provocative statements and maintain an air of peaceful environment suddenly include the 1965 war, the india china war, toilets and who won what? funnily enough i saw the entire thread and i dont even know how this came to be... not good.

War is never a singular process nor it is something predictable. if history has taught us anything is that war is always changing, evolving and adapting. Objectives at the start may not be the objectives at the end. Some times the objectives can be simple and evolve into complicated ones. We see this with every war. This fact is perhaps the most overlooked fact ironically on a defense forum.

It takes some real lack of thinking to equate losses with losing and retreats into defeats....

We are on a defense forum yet we talk about war in a very childish fashion and its not just one side. Its all sides.

1. first there is extreme romanticism about it that war is something that is needed and can solve problems that inhibit a nation when its complete opposite. Often such talks are completely opposite of the modern world affairs and international law and this romanticism then extends to soldiers and the fantasies one has of them that they are automated machines. They are human beings just like us. This then evolves into a mirror from which we see every conflict past, present and then the future and try to mold events to this image.
   
2. There is basic misunderstanding of how wars are fought and evolve with its continuation. The changes that come are simply its evolution. One can sit and predict how it may go but nothing is a hundred percent. even modern wars, in fact especially modern wars have a habit of changing drastically.
3. everyday theories are discussed and evolve and changed yet we talk as if its command and conquer video game.

Lets take a step back and take a deep breath, look as to why 5 pages of absolute uselessness was posted and get back on topic.

Your sanity and balance make a compelling case for participation.

 

[saiyan0321]

Your sanity and balance make a compelling case for participation.

your participation is the objective.

 

[Arsalan 345]

Agreed

 

[Psychic]

b) 25 Pounders (also operated by Pakistan Army) by your esteemed self:

These arty pieces are well documented

along with an entire squadron worth of intact AMX-13(which Pak didn't operate) in 100 percent working condition in Chamb region.

But I think his highness does not believe that intact equipment can be captured in wars---which is not expected from someone who claims to be a military officer.

 

[Hellfire]

These arty pieces are well documented

along with an entire squadron worth of intact AMX-13(which Pak didn't operate) in 100 percent working condition in Chamb region.

But I think his highness does not believe that intact equipment can be captured in wars---which is not expected from someone who claims to be a military officer.

And what, in your highness' esteemed opinion, led you to deduce that? Did you miss the "b) 25 Pounders (also operated by Pakistan Army) by your esteemed self:"

Or did you miss:

"So let me get this straight, you see no problem in perpetuating 'the fog of war' by:'

The first line in my post that you quoted? Thereby failing to understand the context of what has been said?

Am always amiable to a clarification, if sought.

 

[Anik101]

But sir we definitely won that war
India wanted to capture Pakistan
And its Generals wanted to take a tea in a Lahore hotel and we failed them by defending our country and also capturing their land
They retreated v not Sir..........

1965 war started with Pakistani invasion of Kashmir under Operation Grand Slam and Operation Gibraltar.In order to save Kashmir and to ease pressure in Akhnoor sector, India on 6th September crossed international border. Remember the objective was not to capture Lahore but to force Pakistan to withdraw some of its force from Akhnoor sector and redeploy them in Lahore sector. Pakistan in order to ease pressure in Lahore sector crossed IB and attacked India in Khemkaran sector. All this ended in a stalemate. Pakistan which initiated the conflict failed to meet its objective and India was successfully able to defend Kashmir.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grand_Slam

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gibraltar

Here is an interview of PAF Air Marshal Asghar Khan. He clearly says that Indian attack on Lahore was in reaction to Pakistani attack on Indian Kashmir.
Watch from 1:45 onwards.

 

[Hellfire]

1965 war started with Pakistani invasion of Kashmir under Operation Grand Slam and Operation Gibraltar.In order to save Kashmir and to ease pressure in Chammbh sector, India on 6th September crossed international border. Remember the objective was not to capture Lahore but to force Pakistan to withdraw some of its force from Chammbh Jaurian sector and redeploy them in Lahore sector. Pakistan in order to ease pressure in Lahore sector crossed IB and attacked India in Khemkaran sector. All this ended in a stalemate. Pakistan which initiated the conflict failed to meet its objective and India was successfully able to defend Kashmir.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grand_Slam

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gibraltar

My Dear Sir.

When a professional of the Pakistani side, well respected by those who know of him, across political lines, failed to convey the message, as his subsequent reply indicates, what makes you think that you have any hope?