Pakistan turns to Russia and China after US military aid freeze

[randomradio]

That is a ridiculous post. You dont know anything about the EW Suite of the 16, or the J10. You have totally disregarded the issues with the engines , WS10 being in testing phase, against the F16 engine thrust. The Chinese problems with designator PODs Is well known leading to PAF choice of ASELSAN
A

You are underestimating the J-10C too much.

The EW suite of the F-16B52 is obsolete by any standards. The radar is obsolete, so are the remaining avionics. The B60 is also obsolete by current standards, especially performance. You forget that a better aircraft than this was eliminated in both Brazil and India. Even UAE is out to upgrade their B60s.

The F-16's engine may be better, but that doesn't equate to a shortfall in the J-10's performance. The J-10 should be the better design when it comes to aircraft performance. The J-10 lacks range, I suppose the only real area where the F-16 trumps the J-10 when it comes to flying characteristics.

Yeah, the J-10's LDP pod is worse, but the pod doesn't speak for the aircraft. Another drawback is the lack of a HMDS, but even that's okay.

In my books, it will take the F-16V to exceed the J-10C.

 

[Raider 21]

You are underestimating the J-10C too much.

The EW suite of the F-16B52 is obsolete by any standards. The radar is obsolete, so are the remaining avionics. The B60 is also obsolete by current standards, especially performance. You forget that a better aircraft than this was eliminated in both Brazil and India. Even UAE is out to upgrade their B60s.

The F-16's engine may be better, but that doesn't equate to a shortfall in the J-10's performance. The J-10 should be the better design when it comes to aircraft performance. The J-10 lacks range, I suppose the only real area where the F-16 trumps the J-10 when it comes to flying characteristics.

Yeah, the J-10's LDP pod is worse, but the pod doesn't speak for the aircraft. Another drawback is the lack of a HMDS, but even that's okay.

In my books, it will take the F-16V to exceed the J-10C.

So obsolete that Block 15s can fly near the Indo-Pak border and pick up SAM tallies but the SAMs somehow get jammed........very mysterious I would say.

 

[shootingstar]

So obsolete that Block 15s can fly near the Indo-Pak border and pick up SAM tallies but the SAMs somehow get jammed........very mysterious I would say.

Well, Are you taking Indian equipment as the bench mark for cutting edge technologies? Then god save you.

1) India does not sport cutting edge tech

2) India is no longer your primary enemy

 

[Raider 21]

Well, Are you taking Indian equipment as the bench mark for cutting edge technologies? Then god save you.

1) India does not sport cutting edge tech

2) India is no longer your primary enemy

No just saying from what pilots have mentioned....

1) I didn't know that...

2) India was never my enemy. My enemy is my adversity.

Cheers !!!!

 

[randomradio]

So obsolete that Block 15s can fly near the Indo-Pak border and pick up SAM tallies but the SAMs somehow get jammed........very mysterious I would say.

That's not a big deal.

 

[araz]

So obsolete that Block 15s can fly near the Indo-Pak border and pick up SAM tallies but the SAMs somehow get jammed........very mysterious I would say.

I tend to ignore him.
A

 

[randomradio]

I tend to ignore him.
A

Yes. The J-10C is inferior to the F-16 because the F-16 has an ancient EW suite and a superior laser designator pod.

Considering the quality of the arguments I have to deal with, thanks for ignoring.

Well, Are you taking Indian equipment as the bench mark for cutting edge technologies? Then god save you.

1) India does not sport cutting edge tech

2) India is no longer your primary enemy

The genius doesn't know that most of our SAM capability is older than the F-16.

 

[araz]

There should be nothing on the F-16 today that's better than the J-10C save for the pilot. Not even UAE's B60 will be a match to the J-10C. In fact, it should be on par with the latest USN Super Hornet's. You can say that you will need the SH Block 3 to stay ahead of the J-10C.

Even the weapons are a step ahead.

That is a ridiculous post. You dont know anything about the EW Suite of the 16, or the J10. You have totally disregarded the issues with the engines , WS10 being in testing phase, against the F16 engine thrust. The Chinese problems with designator PODs Is well known leading to PAF choice of ASELSAN
A

You are underestimating the J-10C too much.

The EW suite of the F-16B52 is obsolete by any standards. The radar is obsolete, so are the remaining avionics. The B60 is also obsolete by current standards, especially performance. You forget that a better aircraft than this was eliminated in both Brazil and India. Even UAE is out to upgrade their B60s.

The F-16's engine may be better, but that doesn't equate to a shortfall in the J-10's performance. The J-10 should be the better design when it comes to aircraft performance. The J-10 lacks range, I suppose the only real area where the F-16 trumps the J-10 when it comes to flying characteristics.

Yeah, the J-10's LDP pod is worse, but the pod doesn't speak for the aircraft. Another drawback is the lack of a HMDS, but even that's okay.

In my books, it will take the F-16V to exceed the J-10C.

So obsolete that Block 15s can fly near the Indo-Pak border and pick up SAM tallies but the SAMs somehow get jammed........very mysterious I would say.

I tend to ignore him.
A

The posts in sequence of how we got to where we are. Idont know whether to laugh or cry. You have passed judgement upon judgdment. This includes
A. Bl.52 avionics suite is obsolete.
B. J10 C avionics suite is better( so PAF is composed of idiots that they are going all around to get an avionics suite for JFT)
C. Russian supply chain issues are a propaganda(and the hotelier being made the agent for RD93 in Russia to deal with Pak is not a hotelier).
D. India is the centre of buying and Russia is now dependent on it.
AND YOU ASK WHY I IGNORE YOU?
Someone great once said
"Jawab e Jaahilaan bashad khamoshi".
I rest my case . As of now you are officially on my ignore list.
A

 

[randomradio]

The posts in sequence of how we got to where we are. Idont know whether to laugh or cry. You have passed judgement upon judgdment. This includes
A. Bl.52 avionics suite is obsolete.

Yes. The USAF calls it legacy aircraft. They need the F-16V upgrade in order to keep it relevant enough that it won't be a frontline aircraft, but will still be useful.

B. J10 C avionics suite is better( so PAF is composed of idiots that they are going all around to get an avionics suite for JFT)

Chinese export grade stuff is totally different. Isn't that obvious? So PAF aren't a bunch of idiots, but they simply don't have access to the J-10C.

Rather, I believe, PAF should directly transition to the J-31. Why do you wanna deal with the J-10C at all.

C. Russian supply chain issues are a propaganda(and the hotelier being made the agent for RD93 in Russia to deal with Pak is not a hotelier).

This argument doesn't even make sense.

D. India is the centre of buying and Russia is now dependent on it.

Dependency is a strong word. We bought a lot of stuff from them, so we need their support. That's no different from what Pakistan is doing. But at the same time, we have alternate suppliers.

Russia and India have a buyer-seller relationship with all the old stuff we have, it's of mutual benefit. There is no drawback to your so-called claim of "dependency" on Russia. The Russians depend on India to make R&D investments into their own industry as well.

As long as we don't invade Russia, the Russian production lines are practically Indian lines. We can order what we what from them anytime we want it with no fear of sanctions even if we test nukes. How is that a dependency?

AND YOU ASK WHY I IGNORE YOU?
Someone great once said
"Jawab e Jaahilaan bashad khamoshi".
I rest my case . As of now you are officially on my ignore list.
A

Considering the poor knowledge of politics and processes that have been demonstrated the last few months here, you are not doing yourself a favour by ignoring me.

One guy things R&D is a waste of money and doesn't know the difference between offsets and JVs. Another guy thinks LCA is late and gives no real reason to it. Now you are assuming a more advanced aircraft like the J-10C is actually inferior to the F-16.

This is what our air force thinks about the F-16 B70.
http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-potential-for-india-say-iaf-veterans/747705/
Today, the F-16 being offered to India for the IAF has absolutely no growth potential.

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

This is what the IAF thinks of the F-16B70. So you can only imagine what they think about the 52.

==============
A continuation from my previous post:

With respect to the MMRCA, the RFI was signed and sent out in November 2004 under my signature… The fact or the point that you’re raising that the air force didn’t have a contention or consideration about cost factors – that two entrants were late entrants – is not entirely correct. It was a very well thought out process. Why because the first four that were involved and in consideration – except for the Gripen – the others were forty-year-old technologies. And you’re going to be inducting an aircraft which was going to come in late – the first decade of the 2000s originally – and you’d be using it for the next forty years. And it was not – we raised the question that is it was worth looking at three of the contenders – F-16, Mirage 2000 and the MiG-29 – they’re forty-year-old technologies.

This was the thinking back in 2004.

 

[GriffinsRule]

This is what our air force thinks about the F-16 B70.
http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-potential-for-india-say-iaf-veterans/747705/
Today, the F-16 being offered to India for the IAF has absolutely no growth potential.

“Therefore, we should not buy these obsolete machines for the IAF. If procured, the aircraft will be in service for the next 40 years, which would be old for the air force,” he explained.

It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

This is what the IAF thinks of the F-16B70. So you can only imagine what they think about the 52.

What does the IAF think of its Mig-29s, Su-30s, and Mirage 2000s ... all of which are the premiere aircraft in IAF and of the same generation but in terms of capabilities, much behind the F-16 Block 70?

The only aircraft that would be more capable would be either the Eurofighter, Rafale or the F-35. IAF already has bought one of those and cost wise they would all fall in the same bracket, and as has been proven, beyond the India's ability to procure in large numbers.

Which then brings us back to the question, IAF might think the plane has no growth potential, but it will still more capable of anything IAF currently fields and cheaper than any other option out there.

 

[randomradio]

What does the IAF think of its Mig-29s, Su-30s, and Mirage 2000s ... all of which are the premiere aircraft in IAF and of the same generation but in terms of capabilities, much behind the F-16 Block 70?

Yes. With the exception of the M-2000UPG, for one more year, all other aircraft are obsolete compared to the B60. The M-2000 has the advantage of having capable sensor fusion that all other aircraft, including the Block 60 lack. The B70 is obviously a step up.

The only aircraft that would be more capable would be either the Eurofighter, Rafale or the F-35. IAF already has bought one of those and cost wise they would all fall in the same bracket, and as has been proven, beyond the India's ability to procure in large numbers.

Correct with everything except for the last part. We can afford it. MMRCA failed because the earlier DM gave himself a veto to cancel the deal after negotiations in case he doesn't like it.

Regardless, IAF may end up with a minimum of 72 outside a tender anyway. And we are restarting the MMRCA tender.

Which then brings us back to the question, IAF might think the plane has no growth potential, but it will still more capable of anything IAF currently fields and cheaper than any other option out there.

But that's not why you buy aircraft in the first place. The F-16 B70, that doesn't yet exist, is better than everything the IAF has right now. But once the Super MKI upgrade comes in, Rafale comes in, the F-16 B70 will not be worth investing in. So why settle for less?

If we do end up buying American jets, it will most likely be the F-35. Way better than the F-16 B70 and potentially much cheaper also.

The point is the J-10C is a whole generation ahead compared to the ancient F-16B52.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Actually Block 70 (F-16V) does exist now as Bahrain ordered 16 for $2.3B last Sept. They are updating their older Block 40s to the same standard. Greece also is upgrading almost 120 of their F-16s to the same standard for $2.4B.
I think Taiwan is also upgrading its Block 20s as well and Singapore is most likely next. Expect orders to come in from both Korea and Turkey as well within the next couple of years.

As for Block 60, there is almost no comparison...it is the epitome of the F-16 design, and its not just the electronics that are different. Block 60 is also structurally different then other F-16 variants ... and of course, they are still ahead of most 4th gen fighters even though it is now over 10 years old. Despite that, UAE has already signed an order for 30 new Block 61s along with upgrading its 78 or so Block 60s. There is no way any M2000 upgrade is going to even come close to this jet.

 

[randomradio]

Actually Block 70 (F-16V) does exist now as Bahrain ordered 16 for $2.3B last Sept. They are updating their older Block 40s to the same standard. Greece also is upgrading almost 120 of their F-16s to the same standard for $2.4B.
I think Taiwan is also upgrading its Block 20s as well and Singapore is most likely next. Expect orders to come in from both Korea and Turkey as well within the next couple of years.

It's fine for older air forces to upgrade their F-16s. Most of the countries you named have older models of the F-16, like B20, 30, 40 and 50.

As for Block 60, there is almost no comparison...it is the epitome of the F-16 design, and its not just the electronics that are different. Block 60 is also structurally different then other F-16 variants ... and of course, they are still ahead of most 4th gen fighters even though it is now over 10 years old. Despite that, UAE has already signed an order for 30 new Block 61s along with upgrading its 78 or so Block 60s. There is no way any M2000 upgrade is going to even come close to this jet.

The B70 is basically a more advanced B60. The less one speaks of the B60's structural changes, the better. The J-10C has most of the advantages of the F-16B60 without the performance shortfalls of the B60.

The M2000UPG has sensor fusion. The B60 doesn't. They are promising sensor fusion on the B70. I'd rate sensor fusion higher than just a radar or an EW suite.

 

[GriffinsRule]

What sensors does the M2000 carry besides the radar that would be feeding information to the pilot? And what makes you say that there is no sensor fusion in the Block 60?
I would say that Block 61 is actually going to be superior to the Block 70, esp in terms of the armaments it can carry.

I would also suggest not to make comparison of any aircraft with any version of J-10, esp the C as almost zero information is available on that airplanes specs and capabilities.
We don't even know how many J-10C are being produced in China.

 

[randomradio]

What sensors does the M2000 carry besides the radar that would be feeding information to the pilot? And what makes you say that there is no sensor fusion in the Block 60?

Radar, EW suite and MICA's IR seekers.

The first sensor fused aircraft was the F-22 followed by Rafale and then the F-35. For this you need integrated modular avionics, where raw data from sensors are fed to a single computer. The B60 lacks this.

The B70 they proposed to India exclusively has this capability.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/proposed-block-70-f-16-for-india-to-have-f-35-technology.457270/
According to Randall L. Howard, who looks after F-16 Business Development for Lockheed Martin, "leveraging the technology that we've designed and integrated on F-22 and F-35, we are reintegrating those technologies back into the F-16. We're putting state of the art mission computers, data management systems, a one Gigabyte ethernet data system and a new centre pedestal display" onto the F-16 Block 70. In simple terms this means that the F-16, if acquired by the Indian Air Force, would have unparalleled data-fusion whereby inputs from its radars and other sensors would be processed and presented to the pilot in a cogent, easy-to-understand format on multi-function displays in the cockpit and a helmet-mounted sight worn by the pilot.

I would say that Block 61 is actually going to be superior to the Block 70, esp in terms of the armaments it can carry.

That's subjective. A country that can integrate Israeli weapons will have the upper hand.

They have a whole bunch of F-16 specific weapons.

Anyway, it's unclear if the Block 61 will have sensor fusion. I don't see the Americans working on sensor fusion on just 20 or 30 aircraft. The 150 fighters that IAF wants justifies such an investment.

I would also suggest not to make comparison of any aircraft with any version of J-10, esp the C as almost zero information is available on that airplanes specs and capabilities.
We don't even know how many J-10C are being produced in China.

The aircraft has many times lower RCS than the F-16 and carries AESA avionics, radar, EW suite etc. Not even a single version of the F-16 today can compete with the J-10C.