Pakistan turns to Russia and China after US military aid freeze

[Mugwop]

Because Pakistan's ambitions - to be a regional power - exceed its economic means.

I think you are confused or trolling. Pakistan has 2 unstable belligerent neighbors it has to be ready for in case of war. Btw US military aid = economic war

 

[araz]

Because Pakistan's ambitions - to be a regional power - exceed its economic means.

This is not our ambition but a necessity brought on by the injustice done to us at the partition of Indo-Pak as well az Geopolitics. We have since been embroiled in a cold war scenario with an aggressive neighbour. So your statement is not reflective of the actual ground situation.
A

There is a reason why these American dogs keep coming back for more. When the Yanks say to do more they know the weakness of our leaders. They can blackmail these weak and pathetic leaders into submission.

This feeble recalibration BS won't work anymore. By all means look for allies, but give a darn firm response to these American pigs. This half-hearted approach of recalibration is nothing, but deceit. Time has come for solid decision making. Leaving the door half open and pretending that the US and Pakistan have something in common is foolishness. There is zero convergence of anything. America is a pig nation in bed with our enemies. America is a sworn enemy.

Pakistan is extremely unfortunate to have terrible leaders. Zero ability and comprehension.

Perhaps you are not aware of our situation vis a vis US. Just to give you an idea who is our biggest export customer? There are definitely games being played by the US but there is also a need on our part to keep the US engaged. The fact remains that the US withdrawal if it happens will leave us and the region in a bigger mess so much as I hate to say it we will need to be diplomatic here and not be irrational. Remember it is not just a matter of quid pro quo response We need to think of the consequences of our response and work on all scenarios. Time is not on our time and the situation will certainly not be the same today as it was in 2002 and there is bound to be improvements in the next 5 years.
A

India turning to the US doesn't mean India is turning away from Russia. India is a major pole by itself, alongside the US, China, EU and Russia. Both the US and Russia can engage India. India is not choosing sides.

As for your second point, a lot of Russian equipment on imports are being replaced by Chinese stuff, like the potential WS-13 engine for the JF-17.

You seem to have the wrong idea about the Indo Russian relationship. This is fallacious and grossly overestimating your importance. The fact remains that you need Russia far more than Russia needs you as a vreat maj9rity of your inventory is Russian and you need spares to keep it going.
Pak Russia relationship has many problems the biggest one being lack of money on the pary of Pak to pay for the items it wants and lack of money to offer loans on the Russian part. Secondly our move towards Russia would mean setting up an entirely new inventory of spares and expendables which is a maintenance nightmare from the admon point of view. Efficient handling requires commonalityof expendables which we dont have.
There maybe an element of mistrust on both parties part due to our past skirmishes so it will take time to remove the mistrust. Laztly Russian design ethos is different to the equipment Pak is used to handling and this will continue to be a problem. It will take time for both parties to adjust and may or maynot happen. Pak has all of the advantages which it rewuires in China and will therefore continue to rely on it for arms purchases.
There has been a change in Pak buying tdndencies over the last 2 years and we are now talking of building in house and having local assembly rights and other offsets which depicts the confidence of the armed forces in its capability to manufacture newer equipmentwith some help.
A

 

[Solomon2]

This is not our ambition but a necessity brought on by the injustice done to us at the partition of Indo-Pak -

Do you see the contradiction? If you are complaining about an injustice then you are seeking the means to right it. Pakistan took hundreds of millions of dollars worth of U.S. economic and military aid meant to strengthen it against Communism and used much of it to enrich a military and civilian ruling class and threw the rest into military oppression at home and conquest and domination abroad. As such these were not local matters of self-defense of Pakistan's citizenry but means to gain glory for and preserve and enrich the leadership. They were not necessary for mere self-defense at all.

 

[araz]

Do you see the contradiction? If you are complaining about an injustice then you are seeking the means to right it. Pakistan took hundreds of millions of dollars worth of U.S. economic and military aid meant to strengthen it against Communism and used much of it to enrich a military and civilian ruling class and threw the rest into military oppression at home and conquest and domination abroad. As such these were not local matters of self-defense of Pakistan's citizenry but means to gain glory for and preserve and enrich the leadership. They were not necessary for mere self-defense at all.

Would you like to qualify your statement regarding "oppression at home and conquest and domination abroad". Are we talking of the Zionist state of Israel?
For your information actions in Murrie Khaibar and North and South Waziristan were carried out to re establish the writ of the state and stop the terrorist attacks which were a day to day occurance in Pakistan. So please spare me the bull crap about oppression.
I would be the first person to say that Pakistan state and in some aspects its military has its own share of black sheep but you cannot use that to berrate and degrade the efforts of the armed forces and the thousnds of lives that have been laid down to achieve the relative peace that we have today.
A

 

[randomradio]

You seem to have the wrong idea about the Indo Russian relationship. This is fallacious and grossly overestimating your importance.

This is going to be a long post.

If you look at the world map, India is an extremely important country for Russia. India is important for China and the US also, along with all other major powers in the world. The strategic location makes India extremely important. Draw a line from India to any of the world's oceans and major resource centers, you will get an idea. We have access to Africa, South East Asia, the Middle East, Australia and South America. We are slowly getting access to Central Asia as well. All other countries have direct access to only a few areas among them.

The reason why Russia needs India is because China is a threat to Russia as well. The Soviet Union and the Russians have always tried their best to keep India strong because of the China factor.

And this is not even counting India's growing economic heft.

The fact remains that you need Russia far more than Russia needs you as a vreat maj9rity of your inventory is Russian and you need spares to keep it going.

It's changing really fast. Most spares support is being indigenized by bringing Russian companies into India for production by forcing them to commit to joint ventures with Indian private companies. This change is very recent, and saw changes to Russian laws.

https://www.indiatoday.in/pti-feed/...nsfer-jvs-with-indian-firms-894474-2017-03-21
A number of Russian defence firms has broadly agreed to facilitate speedy repair and overhaul of Russian-origin military platforms in India and manufacture their spare parts through joint venture and technology transfer with Indian companies.

Almost the entire support structure for Russian equipment is being indigenized with majority control with Indian companies. Once done, it will immediately shift our imports to indigenous ratio from 70:30 (it is 60:40 right now) to 30:70 over the next 3 years.

And then, we are replacing everything else with Indian designed systems, which should start showing results over the next 5 years.

In the near future, most of the defence relationship between India and Russia will center around highly strategic systems like FGFA, naval and space based technologies rather than less strategic systems like we have been doing over the last 60 years or so since they will mostly be indigenized. So instead of saying India will be dependent on Russia, we can say that both countries will achieve a higher grade in relations as strategic partners than simply have a buyer-seller relationship when it comes to defence.

Pak Russia relationship has many problems the biggest one being lack of money on the pary of Pak to pay for the items it wants and lack of money to offer loans on the Russian part. Secondly our move towards Russia would mean setting up an entirely new inventory of spares and expendables which is a maintenance nightmare from the admon point of view. Efficient handling requires commonalityof expendables which we dont have. There maybe an element of mistrust on both parties part due to our past skirmishes so it will take time to remove the mistrust.

Russia is not a country that can actually help out Pakistan in any meaningful way as compared to China. Pak doesn't have the money necessary to invest in Russia's defence industry immediately, most of it will go into the Chinese industry. Once Chinese policies start interfering with Russian interests, you will see Pakistan drifting away from Russia. This will become visible in just 10-15 years or so. Not long enough to create any meaningful relationship with the Russians.

Laztly Russian design ethos is different to the equipment Pak is used to handling and this will continue to be a problem. It will take time for both parties to adjust and may or maynot happen. Pak has all of the advantages which it rewuires in China and will therefore continue to rely on it for arms purchases.

There's nothing wrong with Russian equipment, most of the criticism is just ridiculous propaganda. We see that for a fact with the amount of sorties the Russians have conducted over Syria, 30000 sorties in just 2 years.

The biggest problem with Russian equipment has been bureaucratic hurdles, that's why imported Russian equipment don't do very well in many countries. The Russian govt does not allow importers to talk to OEMs directly, everything is handled through the Russian govt (Rosoboronexport). And they don't allow the signature of contracts for long term deals. And when they sell spares, it is for a year or less. They do it because they want a constant stream of orders every year. So there are many times during the equipment's lifecycle that spares are not available.

Parrikar forced the Russians to change their laws regarding long term contracts and access to OEMs, allowing them to set up JVs and other instruments which will allow a constant supply of spares and support from Russian OEMs.

Read this article:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Russian-spares-for-Indian-weapon-systems/article17024135.ece

Of course, this could only be India specific.

There has been a change in Pak buying tdndencies over the last 2 years and we are now talking of building in house and having local assembly rights and other offsets which depicts the confidence of the armed forces in its capability to manufacture newer equipmentwith some help.
A

Local assembly is only the start of a very long journey. I don't know why you brought it up because Russia is not in the business of helping develop the defence industry of any country. They only want large purchase orders, to which they provide ToT if the order is big enough. And even after that, they make ToT very difficult to implement. If you really want actual assistance, you should be looking towards Sweden. So if you can't sign big ticket deals with the Russians by any measure, either defence or oil supplies, their support will be very limited.

The Russians find India to be a far more lucrative defence market and a more significant political partner. I don't see any long term advantage for the Russians in dealing with Pakistan at the expense of relations with India.

 

[NakedLunch]

Because Pakistan's ambitions - to be a regional power - exceed its economic means.

Really? Tell me more about that bubla.

 

[Rajpute]

If pak start charging for the land and Air routes, then with that money they
can order J10B fighter jets and phase out the F16's.

Lol
J10s are just nothing as compared to F16s

 

[帅的一匹]

Lol
J10s are just nothing as compared to F16s

Only a pilot who fly both F16blk52 and J10c has the saying.

 

[araz]

Only a pilot who fly both F16blk52 and J10c has the saying.

Brother Wang.
While it is true and we remain in the dark regarding most recent Chinese developments. It is I think fair to say that j10C would be in the same league as bl.52. However the significant issues with J10 remains a mature engine and POSSIBLY the maturity of the avionics and countermeasures suite. Handling wise it qill probably be more maneouverable due to its canards and FBW. Once that is resolved we will have a huge inventory of very capable planes WHICH WILL EXCEED THE 16s CAPABILITIES.

A

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Only a pilot who fly both F16blk52 and J10c has the saying.

Sarcasm is dripping

 

[randomradio]

Brother Wang.
While it is true and we remain in the dark regarding most recent Chinese developments. It is I think fair to say that j10C would be in the same league as bl.52. However the significant issues with J10 remains a mature engine and POSSIBLY the maturity of the avionics and countermeasures suite. Handling wise it qill probably be more maneouverable due to its canards and FBW. Once that is resolved we will have a huge inventory of very capable planes WHOCCH WILL EXCEED THE 16s CAPABILITIES.

A

There should be nothing on the F-16 today that's better than the J-10C save for the pilot. Not even UAE's B60 will be a match to the J-10C. In fact, it should be on par with the latest USN Super Hornet's. You can say that you will need the SH Block 3 to stay ahead of the J-10C.

Even the weapons are a step ahead.

 

[araz]

There should be nothing on the F-16 today that's better than the J-10C save for the pilot. Not even UAE's B60 will be a match to the J-10C. In fact, it should be on par with the latest USN Super Hornet's. You can say that you will need the SH Block 3 to stay ahead of the J-10C.

Even the weapons are a step ahead.

That is a ridiculous post. You dont know anything about the EW Suite of the 16, or the J10. You have totally disregarded the issues with the engines , WS10 being in testing phase, against the F16 engine thrust. The Chinese problems with designator PODs Is well known leading to PAF choice of ASELSAN
A

 

[salarsikander]

military oppression at home and conquest and domination abroad.

Military opression.LOL ask that from Palestinian he will tell you. Conquest and domination of Palestine is well recorded and opposed internationally

 

[Raider 21]

Brother Wang.
While it is true and we remain in the dark regarding most recent Chinese developments. It is I think fair to say that j10C would be in the same league as bl.52. However the significant issues with J10 remains a mature engine and POSSIBLY the maturity of the avionics and countermeasures suite. Handling wise it qill probably be more maneouverable due to its canards and FBW. Once that is resolved we will have a huge inventory of very capable planes WHOCCH WILL EXCEED THE 16s CAPABILITIES.

A

Absolutely the J-10 will edge the F-16.....I mean why else would the J-10 only be in service in China and the F-16 in service with almost 30 countries....

 

[Dalit]

Do you see the contradiction? If you are complaining about an injustice then you are seeking the means to right it. Pakistan took hundreds of millions of dollars worth of U.S. economic and military aid meant to strengthen it against Communism and used much of it to enrich a military and civilian ruling class and threw the rest into military oppression at home and conquest and domination abroad. As such these were not local matters of self-defense of Pakistan's citizenry but means to gain glory for and preserve and enrich the leadership. They were not necessary for mere self-defense at all.

LOL at military oppression at home and domination abroad. You sound like a paranoid Indian who still hasn't gotten over the painful partition.

When are you going to stop oppressing the Palestinians? Killing stone throwing children with F-16s isn't heroic nor self-defense. Even your ally India has slapped you in the face at the UN by supporting the Palestinians. Today you suck up to India like a little bitch pretending that all is fine.

You can kiss goodbye to Pakistan. We are not on your side. It is better to stop begging us for help in Afghanistan. You aren't getting any. You got your a$$ whooped by the Taliban LOL