Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Corax]

The PAF royally bungled its NGFA plans by basically not taking them seriously.

AHQ never took Turkey's TFX invite seriously (and heck, I'd bet they didn't take the TFX itself seriously until now). And AHQ threw the AZM bone to some internal group to humour them. We also have a camp that's of the belief, "well, we don't want to introduce an NGFA to the region because that'll push India to add its own NGFA, so, let's not focus on that right now."

Strategically, the most rational route was to:

1. Pursue the J-10CE as the next mainstay fighter. Buy it in incremental batches through the rest of this decade. I think (funding problems notwithstanding) this has been the plan since around 2017-2018 (and accelerated after 2019).

2. Join an NGFA program -- be it Turkey or China -- as a consortium partner. We had our shot to negotiate a relatively good deal back in 2016 when Turkey invited us to join the TFX. Heck, we could've done the same thing with the AVIC FC-31 in 2012. In either case, we could've got investment, offsets, and serious workshare which would've truly taken our academia and industry to the next level. Now, we are stuck on the 'quasi-partner, mostly a customer' category for both TFX/MMU and J-35/J-21.

On the right course of action, the PAF would focus on inducting J-10CEs until the NGFA (TFX or J-35) comes online. The latter would be a mid-2030s type of thing, and all procurement effort would focus on the NGFA (to replace the F-16A/Bs).

The prevailing mentality seems to be "india isn't the US". Whenever I mention the fact that the PAF missed an opportunity with the twin seat version of the JF-17, and that they should have based it on the Block 3 specs including the dedicated LDP hardpoint, the new IR based MAWS, and AESA radar to make a more credible combat capable twin seater (a relatively simple target next to developing an FGFA), people reply back with "not needed, we are facing india, not the US". If you want to know why the likes of Turkey and China are where they are today, and why Pakistan is where it is today, this pretty much explains it.

 

[Path-Finder]

Turkiye intends to develop twin-engine KIZILELMA UCAV (length & wingspan greater than JF-17) having larger fuselage for greater internal weapon station volume and fuel capacity. If Turkiye develops its pilot operated version, it would be cheaper & capable 5th gen aircraft.

the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.

 

[princefaisal]

For size comparison of Kizilelma and J-20:-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1596898721178202112

 

[Ali_Baba]

the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.

the best thing to me - of the Kizilelma flight - is the ability to test the Turkish developed new digital fly-by-wire flight control system for an unstable airframe. That knowledge will feed into the TFX quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system for sure. That will massively de-risk the programme. The engines for the prototype are American - so the risk variables for the TFX prototype are being successfully knocked off.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

the experience from Kizilelma can definitely help in TFX. technically Kizilelma has already done so much of the leg work that will pave the way for TFX.

the best thing to me - of the Kizilelma flight - is the ability to test the Turkish developed new digital fly-by-wire flight control system for an unstable airframe. That knowledge will feed into the TFX quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system for sure. That will massively de-risk the programme. The engines for the prototype are American - so the risk variables for the TFX prototype are being successfully knocked off.

I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

 

[Ali_Baba]

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

Absolutely - and it will highlight Pakistan's failed approach of having military men develop weapons and not private industry. Interesting times for sure!!!!

 

[Path-Finder]

I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

is it possible to get ivchenko progress ToT? I don't think Ukraine will have any qualms in doing so. it will save alot of time. while domestic engines can be made in due time.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

baykar started by making RC planes and look at them now. a real success story.

 

[Indos]

Efficient company + Big support from Government. I think it is the secret.

First make the company as efficient and profitable business entity. Once you have money, you can get help from mature aerospace company that sells engineering service.

Indonesian Aerospace for example has engineering service business as well. BAE system I believe the same as they are helping Turkish TFX program with 100 engineers

 

[Horse_Rider]

Turkiye intends to develop twin-engine KIZILELMA UCAV (length & wingspan greater than JF-17) having larger fuselage for greater internal weapon station volume and fuel capacity. If Turkiye develops its pilot operated version, it would be cheaper & capable 5th gen aircraft.

Essentially TFX is that manned version. The TFX DNA comes from KizilElma. Obviously, TX would have more advance tech since it's being built now vs. KizilElma with few year older tech.

Efficient company + Big support from Government. I think it is the secret.

First make the company as efficient and profitable business entity. Once you have money, you can get help from mature aerospace company that sells engineering service.

Indonesian Aerospace for example has engineering service business as well. BAE system I believe the same as they are helping Turkish TFX program with 100 engineers

The key is to have local industry. Whenever a government prioritizes that, something is always built. JFT is an example for us. it doesn't have to be "make a company profitable, etc". It needs to have funding to build what it needs to build. For example, in China's case, their fighter jets aren't exported (the J series, outside of J-10C to Pakistan) and many other munitions. They build for internal consumption first and have made investments into every arena. We've all watched a similar story in Turkey and China. Radars, Avionics, Flight Testing, Manufacturing, Engine Tech, Robotics, etc, etc, had received serious investments many years ago. Now both nations are reaping the fruits.

And ALL defense manufacturers have consulting services associated to their products.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey Manufactured the Fuselage for F35 so they gained key structural knowledge of main body of the plane

Pakistan has knowledge about the Wings general body parts for long time

Both Turkey and Pakistan, have ample knowledge on design of functional components of Fighter Jet the hardware & software

The Engine will be a challenge by likely Turkey has some knowledge on Engine's side
Pakistan does has some knowledge working with Mirage Engines for multiple decades

 

[Indos]

The key is to have local industry. Whenever a government prioritizes that, something is always built. JFT is an example for us. it doesn't have to be "make a company profitable, etc". It needs to have funding to build what it needs to build. For example, in China's case, their fighter jets aren't exported (the J series, outside of J-10C to Pakistan) and many other munitions. They build for internal consumption first and have made investments into every arena. We've all watched a similar story in Turkey and China. Radars, Avionics, Flight Testing, Manufacturing, Engine Tech, Robotics, etc, etc, had received serious investments many years ago. Now both nations are reaping the fruits.

And ALL defense manufacturers have consulting services associated to their products.

Basically for many defense enthusiast like us, Chinese leader and Erdogan is perfect. I mean not in how they manage the politics or economy, but they support on their local defense industry.

Still I believe aerospace company should be treated like any business entity in order to grow economically healthy. The perfect ones I think is Boeing and Airbus that both serves civilian and military market.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Basically for many defense enthusiast like us, Chinese leader and Erdogan is perfect. I mean not in how they manage the politics or economy, but they support on their local defense industry.

Still I believe aerospace company should be treated like any business entity in order to grow economically healthy. The perfect ones I think is Boeing and Airbus that both serves civilian and military market.

Boeing and Airbus are brands, these own various businesses underneath them, such as "defense sector" and "commercial operations" and each has a respective line of products. But to start out, you first need to build products in the industry you want to specialize in. After these become successful, then you move onto other products or you'll fail.

 

[That Guy]

For size comparison of Kizilelma and J-20:-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1596898721178202112

On a side note: Form factor, it's a think that exists. It's why all the stealth fighters we know of share similar physixal characteristics.

I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

I agree. It really does seem like building basic drones to then move on to advanced drones is a great (and relatively cheaper) way to increase your nation's technical knowledge base around aviation.

What do you think? Could we see an announcement by Baykar by 2025?

 

[JamD]

I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

There's a lot of discussion here that sort of thinks that Kizilelma and TFX are sister programs. The truth is that TA and Baykar are competitors and there is little to no sideways flow of tech - except of course the odd engineer switching jobs. MMU is an entirely independent program that is well funded and well staffed. Yes, Baykar is doing great things but they don't have nearly the resources to take up a project as complex as the MMU. The amount of people working on it should simply tell you of the complexity. And they are understaffed by their own estimates. Kizilelma is a good system but in terms of complexity and capability it is a Mehran in front of the Mercedes that is the MMU.

 

[Silicon0000]

I have read somewhere (don't know where and also not sure about it's authenticity) that Baykar is in very early stage of working on an optionally manned aircraft which will be their first step towards Sixth Gen. If someone else come across same thing then do share it's link here.

I think Baykar is quietly designing a manned fighter. They're definitely building the design, development, and production groundwork to handle bigger jets (e.g., the Kizilelma-C will apparently use twin AI-322s). But if TR Motor engine comes online, there's a big opportunity to produce an F-16-sized fighter to complement the TFX/MMU. By the time that engine can be available, I think Baykar will have built a lot of knowledge about flight control systems, aircraft design, electronics, and heck, even stealth materials. If there are any gaps, they can talk to TAI and Aselsan.

But imagine that, a private Turkish company that started with drones could design and produce its own fighter before PAC ever does @JamD

There's a lot of discussion here that sort of thinks that Kizilelma and TFX are sister programs. The truth is that TA and Baykar are competitors and there is little to no sideways flow of tech - except of course the odd engineer switching jobs. MMU is an entirely independent program that is well funded and well staffed. Yes, Baykar is doing great things but they don't have nearly the resources to take up a project as complex as the MMU. The amount of people working on it should simply tell you of the complexity. And they are understaffed by their own estimates. Kizilelma is a good system but in terms of complexity and capability it is a Mehran in front of the Mercedes that is the MMU.