Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Bilal.]

Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Living in la la land.. technically turkiye is far advanced than us, financially as well. You are begging for 1 billion here and there to keep afloat and you are going to contribute financially??
Technically, what are you going to contribute. The only contribution you can make is your experience and input from existing platforms..nothing in terms of innovation or technology..
As suggested possibly a conduit for exchange of certain technologies from China..

Another one speaks up with two British flags! I guess we now have brown, "wane be White foreigners" running our defense acquisitions!

I'd debate on this subject with a Pakistani person who knows what's going on in our defense circles! There is no need to argue with "hear say".

 

[Horse_Rider]

American flags … nawa aya hai soniya?
Zara background dekh lo before repeating like a stuck tape recorder.

Read up on the Azm thread and the design concepts before it was shelved. Look at the videos posted directly from PAC. We already discussed there is no moving forward on the program due to the reasons you mentioned and others so exactly what is the point of posting the same thing?

Share proofs?
Pakistan was aware of J-31 since more than a decade - even the J-20, go look up my posts from 2011 where I mentioned 3 designs and then the Chinese finally broke silence on the alternative design THIS year. As if AHQ will post proofs for you. Your block-Is had mfds shut off mid flight leaving the pilot helpless - go find the proof for it.
As for the Jf-17 - where are you throwing out $50 million from or even answering what question?
I mentioned cost amortization and suddenly US profits come into play?
And yet all you had to do was simply admit you understood the actual cost of the aircraft is much higher due to the production line and training adding onto the unit cost as well.

As for J-10C, what exactly have you added to what I stated? The requirement was for 60 jets - half of which are delivered. If financing was of no issue they could place an order upto a 100 because those poor mirages have to retire someday and the oldest F-16s are showing cracks. Each J-10C cost Pakistan upwards of $50 million - now add the cost of setting up a production line to that, training the workers on that line and so on,
So you don’t see a cost reduction until the 80th jet - and for what? You aren’t exporting - heck you’ve barely sold 19 JF-17s which your planners were boasting to sell hundreds of like the Mig-21.

PAF will get a 5th gen and it may likely be a Chinese jet because no one else will finance it for you - but other than having a rebuild factory it makes absolutely no sense to start building J-10s.

Also, you remain in the category of fanboys.,,

Now you just went in circles and mixed my posts and statements with yours. Nawa to bilkul nahin hon nor do I want to flash my existence on a web forum as if being a member in 2011 brought the cricket world cup home! A few workshops done to "create a mythical design" of a 5th gen jet doesn't mean we had one or we could remotely build one. We didn't even have a win tunnel to test a diecast (Iron) model let alone a design for 5th gen fighter . I'm surprised you claim to know so much and you don't know our capability or lack of it back then? Paper design sessions and workshops happen a lot, nothing really comes out of these. Definitely not a 5th gen platform. I feel stupid writing about this, this idea is that dumb and that also back in 2000-2010! That's "Azm design" issue. I hope it's settled.

We've known about J-XX (without specific naming conventions that existed) back in 1998-199 when JFT was being setup. Obviously, we thought if Chinese equipment comes closer to the Western, we'd buy. In fact, we waited about a decade on J-10C (when J-10A was being offered to us in Musharraf sb's time). I'd stop here.

I didn't bring in "American profits" as a comparison. I educated you how the US can MAKE 30-40% on each defense article's sale and we have nothing to compare to them with. This was an explanation to your GIGANTIC false claim that JFT costs average $ 15 million a piece! On us selling it for $ 50 million, kindly find some credible place about our price quotations to Argentina and instead of arguing, realize you are not current on stuff.

We are an official partner in TFX. That's what AZM will now include. J-31 isn't in the picture right now more than "just interest". In prior two ACM's time, J-31 had more of a role in consideration but TFX took it away and seems like the way forward. Like anything, it can also change with the new ACM coming in or a new government.

 

[TheSolution]

Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.

Can you elaborate on "preference"? Why were they so insistent on canards, and who?

It seems odd. Why is every institution in Pakistan a total structural mess? What went wrong?

 

[Horse_Rider]

Can you elaborate on "preference"? Why were they so insistent on canards, and who?

It seems odd. Why is every institution in Pakistan a total structural mess? What went wrong?

There is no "structural mess" anywhere. The internet warriors are everywhere it seems and not one of you is on the ground or in the air trying to lose blood for Pakistan. A strategic forum has been turned into a political sh*it shoot on military.

The defenders of Pakistan know what they need, how and when. I'd "love" to see the story abut "canards". He keeps saying it but doesn't answer every time I ask!

 

[TheSolution]

@SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.

On topic: the tweets about TFX/MMU with #Azm are especially depressing and pathetic. The delusions of grandeur are mind boggling. Fazool main fix horahay hain lol.

Can mods actually actually do something about the second part?

I don't know why people are allowed to post their fantasy stories that are void of any reality and ruin the forum.

They keep posting that same clip again and again and claiming the TFX is a joint program with Pakistan...

There is no "structural mess" anywhere. The internet warriors are everywhere it seems and not one of you is on the ground or in the air trying to lose blood for Pakistan. A strategic forum has been turned into a political sh*it shoot on military.

The defenders of Pakistan know what they need, how and when. I'd "love" to see the story abut "canards". He keeps saying it but doesn't answer every time I ask!

Both those members are credible and actually have worked closely with people involved and are in contact with those currently involved, or were involved.

So their words hold more weight than yours.

This forum is not to blindly praise and cheerlead "the defenders of Pakistan" everywhere, healthy criticism is good, you'd rather get a reality check when you have the chance to fix things rather than when it's way too late.

 

[lightning F57]

IMO Pak has 3 options it can take going down the 5th gen route, all involve leveraging other programmes.

1) Join TXF in any capacity possible, even if its providing some funds and technical assistance where possible to share the cost and risk burden with Turkiye.
2) Work with China to tailor the Snow owl to PAF needs
3) Join the joint Indo/S korean FX programme

The latter 2 are in much more advance stages, what feels a given right now is Pak can not do something alone.

 

[Indos]

The latter 2 are in much more advance stages, what feels a given right now is Pak can not do something alone.

Not only Pakistan, even European countries + Japan are joining forces

Each fighter program has 3 countries joining force

 

[Edevelop]

Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.

Well the whole world knows Turkiye's heart is not in NATO anymore. The relations are sour as the current regime is not the secular government whom Europeans and Americans had once total control over. IMO the Americans planned to kick Turkiye out of the F-35 program regardless and S-400 was that perfect excuse they were looking for. As long as AKP is in power, Turkiye will view NATO from the lens of politics. The country's unique geographical location i.e. close proximity to Russia and Ukraine and neighbouring E.U. puts them in driver's seat. They can flex their muscle whenever they want i.e. decide who can join and not join the league notwithstanding what other members want. And while being a member of NATO, they are trying to become a member of SCO as well, which is China's league. So obviously something is cooking here.

As far as Turkiye's defence industry is concerned, obviously it is miles ahead of Pakistan. Whether they like NATO or not, they did indeed gain valuable technology for decades and unlike Pakistan, they have a solid R&D base and you can see how many indigenous projects are going on simultaneously in the country. Many years ago I remember Canada blocked the sale of cameras for their drones, however, today, that situation has changed.

 

[Fasbre2]

Another one speaks up with two British flags! I guess we now have brown, "wane be White foreigners" running our defense acquisitions!

I'd debate on this subject with a Pakistani person who knows what's going on in our defense circles! There is no need to argue with "hear say".

Why don’t you go ask your uncle Bajwa or his majesty (I need a red carpet reception) Air Force chief.. plonker with a capital P…
Insulting the very people who your economy is floating on…

 

[Horse_Rider]

Why don’t you go ask your uncle Bajwa or his majesty (I need a red carpet reception) Air Force chief.. plonker with a capital P…
Insulting the very people who your economy is floating on…

It's very common for this behavior to show up due to not having real answers and proper operational understanding of the subject. That's why I said no further discussion.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Well the whole world knows Turkiye's heart is not in NATO anymore. The relations are sour as the current regime is not the secular government whom Europeans and Americans had once total control over. IMO the Americans planned to kick Turkiye out of the F-35 program regardless and S-400 was that perfect excuse they were looking for. As long as AKP is in power, Turkiye will view NATO from the lens of politics. The country's unique geographical location i.e. close proximity to Russia and Ukraine and neighbouring E.U. puts them in driver's seat. They can flex their muscle whenever they want i.e. decide who can join and not join the league notwithstanding what other members want. And while being a member of NATO, they are trying to become a member of SCO as well, which is China's league. So obviously something is cooking here.

As far as Turkiye's defence industry is concerned, obviously it is miles ahead of Pakistan. Whether they like NATO or not, they did indeed gain valuable technology for decades and unlike Pakistan, they have a solid R&D base and you can see how many indigenous projects are going on simultaneously in the country. Many years ago I remember Canada blocked the sale of cameras for their drones, however, today, that situation has changed.

You bring up some good points but do know Turkey will never leave NATO. Do they have disagreements? Yes, and that's the case between Germany, US, France, Italy, etc, also. But the leadership in Turkiye knows it's in their absolutely critical interest to never leave NATO. In fact, being in NATO gives them much stronger voice on the world stage, even Saudia despite having more $$ and power, doesn't have. Turkey also benefits greatly economically and defense wise also. SCO will only happen if other NATO countries won't object to it.

Turkiye's defense industry is West based so that's why Pakistan is wanting to essentially either acquire or be a part of various projects where they can allow this to happen.

 

[CSAW]

Its interesting to note that instead of discussing potential options / way forward for Azm, considering indigenous pulling off such a mammoth task / project on our own was NOT on cards, the thread seems to be going towards undue criticism of members hurled on each other .

Going back to the topic and scenario :

If Indian AF goes on and inducts or pulls off a VLO Platform PAF only has 02 options to align as buying partner:

Turkey MMU
or
China J-35 Land version

as likely potential candidates.

Like J-10 saga which took 2 decades to mature until Rafale came into subcontinent and F-16 Block 70s were not available more due to Geo Politics.

Dwindling Economy and funds , Lack of Aviation industry privatization, Materials & other sciences Plus Testing R&D Facilities not properly developed - a number of factors have effected the outcome which is NOT ideal ...

----------------------------------------------------------

Neither one becomes a cheerleader by acknowledging what has been achieved by our Air Arm to stay competitive OR get the Cutting edge vs Indian AF

Nor one has to prove by posting V card showing the direct exposure of working with PAC / PAF to comment the views ,

People living abroad Do Not need any 'certification of Loyalty'. Similarly those back home may have an a better pulse of whats happening on the ground . Perfectly Possible & acceptable.

Patience is a virtue fast disappearing.

Thanks

 

[Path-Finder]

Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

@SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.

If this is the thinking in PAF then Pakistan is doing the right thing, by keeping out of the project. Since there really isnt anything to offer from Pakistani side technically. Its best that Turkey does the actual leg work then PAF can request its own tailored product.

After the success of Kizilelma TFX isn't so far fetched.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Its interesting to note that instead of discussing potential options / way forward for Azm, considering indigenous pulling off such a mammoth task / project on our own was NOT on cards, the thread seems to be going towards undue criticism of members hurled on each other .

Going back to the topic and scenario :

If IAF goes on and inducts or pulls off a VLO Platform PAF only has 02 options to align as buying partner:

Turkey MMU
or
China J-35 Land version

as likely potential candidates.

Like J-10 saga which took 2 decades to mature until Rafale came into subcontinent and F-16 Block 70s were not available more due to Geo Politics.

Dwindling Economy and funds , Lack of Aviation industry privatization, Materials & other sciences Plus Testing R&D Facilities not properly developed - a number of factors have effected the outcome.

Neither one becomes a cheerleader by acknowledging what has been achieved by our Air Arm to stay competitive OR get the Cutting edge vs IAF

Nor one has to prove by posting V card showing the direct exposure of working with APC / PAF to comment the views ,

People living abroad donot need any certification of Loyalty. Similarly those back home may have an a better pulse of whats happening on the ground . Perfectly acceptable.

Patience is a virtue fast disappearing.

Thanks

Very well balanced post. Totally agreed, it comes down to two platforms. This time it won't be a repeat of the J-10 saga, our planners are on top if it. There is more to that situation than people know. Musharaf sb had sort of put us behind "truck lights" and many don't know this story, nor required here.

From an AZM's standpoint, it currently seems as the TFX and there have been discussions with Turkiye that already took place. To cover many other posts, we won't be 'just" using the "finished product". Let's stop at this and allow things to work out and our economy to recover starting Feb 2023. Patience is a virtue (thank you for reminding us).

India has acquired MQ-9B production line locally. Sooner or later, they will be offered either F-35 or some other flavor of similar tech and will acquire more medium platforms. It's critical that Pakistan with it's limited financial resources starts to use it's massive engineering - tech talent and starts to assemble some stuff locally, build industry and save $$. This would be furthering the center of excellence already built for the JFT to go towards building industry. I believe we are headed in that direction but it needs an overdrive approach due to geopolitical situation and our neighbors acquisitions.