Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Fasbre2]

After reading this thread, I have to say this grounded in reality. What can Pakistan offer Turkey in the technical field? Turkey is a rising star in industrial defence and Pakistan sadly isn't.

So Pakistan is merely an onlooker as rightly pointed out and mostly a consumer.

Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..

 

[Edevelop]

Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..

Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.

History says Pakistan has always found itself in the position from giving out nuclear program secrets to countries to secretly offering damaged goods for reverse engineering. For years the J-10 program had a lot of that unofficial Pakistani input too and maybe because of the F-16s they own and the experience of other fighter jets like Rafale and EFT from Middle Eastern exercises. Just saying...

 

[CSAW]

The development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is the main goal of Pakistan’s ‘Project Azm’.

The Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for the fifth-generation fighter appear to have gone through several changes since the initial announcement of Project Azm in 2017.

"Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," Bloomberg reported.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496478623121002497

"Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added.

https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal

-------------------------------------------------------------
"In terms of Project AZM, PAC revealed that the “project is being conceptualized and preliminary designs are ongoing.” In other words, the PAF has yet to finalize the design. This revelation is not surprising – for the PAF, the requirements and technologies that would go into the NGFA are fluid in nature, and subject to change over time…

Will Azm’s Prototype Fly in 2028?​

It is highly unlikely that the first NGFA prototype will fly in 2028, especially when PAC has yet to complete the preliminary design phase of the aircraft. Moreover, several cycles of detailed design work remain, and each of those cycles will take at least two to three years to complete". QUWA

------------------------------------------------------

"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.

The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."

"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.

While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."

Sohail Aman 2017 quoted on PDF

------------------------------------------------------
Turkey’s Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan’s Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production...Read below

Turkey's Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan's Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production

Turkey displayed a scale model of its fifth-generation fighter, codenamed as the TF-X at Pakistan's IDEAS expo 2022

eurasiantimes.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1553997574075568129

 

[Cookie Monster]

After reading this thread, I have to say this grounded in reality. What can Pakistan offer Turkey in the technical field? Turkey is a rising star in industrial defence and Pakistan sadly isn't.

So Pakistan is merely an onlooker as rightly pointed out and mostly a consumer.

Pakistan could have joined the project and it would help Turkey share the cost and reduce the chances of bearing the loss alone in case if it failed. Just by that investment alone Pak could have owned a part of it even if not contributing much technologically...
..but that ship has sailed

 

[Horse_Rider]

Concur, Pakistan has nothing to offer technically or financially to the program.. other than begging for discounted 5th gen equipment..

That's where you don't understand the deep thought process that takes place inside the PAF. We are a partner alright!

 

[SQ8]

That's where you don't understand the deep thought process that takes place inside the PAF. We are a partner alright!

Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.

Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.

Do I see Pakistan buying TFX and somehow integrating some Chinese weapons? May be but that would happen in Pakistan and probably by Pakistani or Turkish tech consultants.

Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

Canard based design.....what project are we talking about? The J-10C?

On the second, we can't "indigenously" build anything just yet. I've posted some detailed analysis on some threads. There is a model for maturity called CMM (capability maturity model), it calls for capability acquisition and mastering it and further enhancing it. WE have the JFT being built in house now over 60%+. Next logical step is to bring in J-10C and assemble it locally with limited ToT and be done with conventional Hi-Lo since the entire operation would become much cheaper to build and maintain / upgrade these jets. While this takes place, we work with the Turkish friends on TFX and acquire it's limited ToT to sustain it locally, know the tech and do integration ourselves. We won't need to local build it as the limited numbers won't make it feasible. But we can do a lot with respect to AZM.

Second "arm" of AZM can become ToT / licensed production of KizilElma. That's where the true future is for 6th gen and beyond, Robotics!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Like wanting a canard based design even though there was no benefit to it just because certain leadership liked the idea even when many SMEs within PAF and consultants advised against it.

Eventually having the entire thing indigenous aspect of it scrapped because neither the knowledge base nor money existed to develop it all in house.

...and going that whole route instead of joining the TFX/MMU earlier on as an initial buyer and co-production partner. Sure, we don't have the technology base, but we could've helped with engineering services (which TAI is now leveraging directly). When the TFX/MMU was on the drawing board, we absolutely had more leverage to negotiate offsets, workshare, etc, etc. In fact, the biggest irony of missing the TFX/MMU train was that we could've begun nurturing a true aerospace production and development ecosystem via our academia and private sector.

But alas, incompetency, not understanding the reality (e.g., "wE MoRe AdaVAHNsed DaN TuRGhee"), and malicious intent torpedoed any chance of taking the most rational high-risk route (TFX/MMU). Instead, we took the most irrational high-risk route (AZM).

 

[SQ8]

Negative! China doesn't want to work on Turkiye's projects in any capacity, even integration of tech since it's NATO. Turkieye equally doesn't want to work with the Chinese as that would upset the West / EU + US, etc. Turkey has already realized the damage the S-400 saga did to itself. It's so bad that basic items such as upgrade kits for F-16's, for which Turkiye has built a whole manufacturing plant, aren't being provided. Turkish defense industry still uses a lot of tech from EU / US / Canada so they can't risk any of that.

Do I see Pakistan buying TFX and somehow integrating some Chinese weapons? May be but that would happen in Pakistan and probably by Pakistani or Turkish tech consultants.



Canard based design.....what project are we talking about? The J-10C?

On the second, we can't "indigenously" build anything just yet. I've posted some detailed analysis on some threads. There is a model for maturity called CMM (capability maturity model), it calls for capability acquisition and mastering it and further enhancing it. WE have the JFT being built in house now over 60%+. Next logical step is to bring in J-10C and assemble it locally with limited ToT and be done with conventional Hi-Lo since the entire operation would become much cheaper to build and maintain / upgrade these jets. While this takes place, we work with the Turkish friends on TFX and acquire it's limited ToT to sustain it locally, know the tech and do integration ourselves. We won't need to local build it as the limited numbers won't make it feasible. But we can do a lot with respect to AZM.

Second "arm" of AZM can become ToT / licensed production of KizilElma. That's where the true future is for 6th gen and beyond, Robotics!

Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.

Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds.

The PAF has fixed its needs for the J-10C at 60 units - of which half are already delivered. Yet your wisdom suggests that PAF spend not only the time and money to set up the additional rigs and all to set it up for 30 jets? That after the sunk costs into the Azm program whose only fruit is a plain jane MALE UaV which could be easily purchased off the shelf and maybe some progress in understanding (but not even close to producing) AESA radars and EW systems.

These are major defense systems, not LU biscuits and even those require major investment if you want to upgrade from Sooper to Prince.

As far as TFX goes, it’s too late to join in other than anything other than intent partner because you have nothing other than intent or maybe user experience to contribute.

And Robotics! Haha… how many years of education do you have?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Maybe Pakistan is a useful middleman for Turkiye to gain access or purchase some Chinese tech. Clearly Turkiye is still in NATO and any direct purchase from China would complicate things just as we have seen with the purchase of S-400 and amongst other things from Russia.

History says Pakistan has always found itself in the position from giving out nuclear program secrets to countries to secretly offering damaged goods for reverse engineering. For years the J-10 program had a lot of that unofficial Pakistani input too and maybe because of the F-16s they own and the experience of other fighter jets like Rafale and EFT from Middle Eastern exercises. Just saying...

Pak loves to give "surprises" to the Hindutva India who can't "surprise" Pak! I am pretty sure it's all up to the Hindutva AMCA program! Now the ball is in the court of the West & Israil, who need to do the cost-benefit analysis: FGF in India to counter China, or no FGF in Pak.....

As for TFX, Turkey needs it like air and water.......

As for the utility of Pak for the Turkish military industrial complexes, money can't buy it! I won't be surprised if they leverage the Chinese IC fabrication, precision engineering, advanced materials sciences etc. facilities via Pak....

 

[Horse_Rider]

Your analysis is as naive as your knowledge of the program itself. The AZM has gone through multiple conceptual design and was settling for a version that resembled the YF-23(in layout of diamond wing and ruddervators) before another concept with canards was put on top due to “preference”.

Now the JFT has fulfilled its requirement for 150 units - the unit cost of JFT may be stated as $15 million but when you include the cost of setting up the production line, training and raw materials that cost has hit above. And that was still amortized cost over 160-175 builds.

The PAF has fixed its needs for the J-10C at 60 units - of which half are already delivered. Yet your wisdom suggests that PAF spend not only the time and money to set up the additional rigs and all to set it up for 30 jets? That after the sunk costs into the Azm program whose only fruit is a plain jane MALE UaV which could be easily purchased off the shelf and maybe some progress in understanding (but not even close to producing) AESA radars and EW systems.

These are major defense systems, not LU biscuits and even those require major investment if you want to upgrade from Sooper to Prince.

As far as TFX goes, it’s too late to join in other than anything other than intent partner because you have nothing other than intent or maybe user experience to contribute.

And Robotics! Haha… how many years of education do you have?

That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.

A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23".

Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.

On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out.

TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.

 

[Fasbre2]

That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.

A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23".

Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.

On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out.

TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.

Living in la la land.. technically turkiye is far advanced than us, financially as well. You are begging for 1 billion here and there to keep afloat and you are going to contribute financially??
Technically, what are you going to contribute. The only contribution you can make is your experience and input from existing platforms..nothing in terms of innovation or technology..
As suggested possibly a conduit for exchange of certain technologies from China..

 

[python-000]

The development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is the main goal of Pakistan’s ‘Project Azm’.

The Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Air Staff Requirements (ASR) for the fifth-generation fighter appear to have gone through several changes since the initial announcement of Project Azm in 2017.

"Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," Bloomberg reported.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496478623121002497

"Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added.

View attachment 906834

https://www.tacticalreport.com/news/article/61145-egypt-sac-fc-31-procurement-and-tot-deal

-------------------------------------------------------------
"In terms of Project AZM, PAC revealed that the “project is being conceptualized and preliminary designs are ongoing.” In other words, the PAF has yet to finalize the design. This revelation is not surprising – for the PAF, the requirements and technologies that would go into the NGFA are fluid in nature, and subject to change over time…

Will Azm’s Prototype Fly in 2028?​

It is highly unlikely that the first NGFA prototype will fly in 2028, especially when PAC has yet to complete the preliminary design phase of the aircraft. Moreover, several cycles of detailed design work remain, and each of those cycles will take at least two to three years to complete". QUWA

------------------------------------------------------

"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.

The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."

"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.

While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."

Sohail Aman 2017 quoted on PDF

------------------------------------------------------
Turkey’s Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan’s Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production...Read below

View attachment 906836

View attachment 906835

Turkey's Fifth-Gen TF-X Fighter Jet Reaches Pakistan's Defense Expo Months After Reports Of Joint Production

Turkey displayed a scale model of its fifth-generation fighter, codenamed as the TF-X at Pakistan's IDEAS expo 2022

eurasiantimes.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1553997574075568129

This is really a good news & best choice available if that news is true that PAF selected J-35 for it's next generation Fighter...

 

[SQ8]

That's an interesting range of comments without facts and from someone with two American flags! Did you hear this from air headquarters or is this your "personal" opinion that we have gone through many design phases and YF-23 like design was finalized? There is NO active AZM project right now! If you have proofs of a YF-23 like design , kindly share. I mean proofs, not just fanboy talk. 80% of this forum is filled with people who "talk" their way through discussions. Pakistan's heart was set from the beginning on J-31 or a Chinese stealth platform and then on TFX as TFX allows Pakistan to gain top notch Western tech.

A reminder about our capability: We don't produce JFT all the way, most critical components still come from China and have gotten very expensive as the higher end products and tech is being used since the block II (and retro upgrades done to block I too). We don't have the capability to manufacture composites yet, let alone a "diamond shape like YF-23".

Also, JFT block II and III use very expensive composites, EW / Radars (AESA in block III), Per your comments, we are building JFT per average cost of $ 15 million, meaning JFT block II and III included, and we are selling it for $ 50 Mil a pop!! WOW! If the military industrial complex or any private businesses started to produce 300 TIMES profit on 1 jet, Pakistan would've been a Trillion dollar economy by selling only JFT's. But standard profits are usually 10-15% tops and there are variables in it too. We are no US to build 4500 F-16's and add FMS to make another 20% markup profit!. Average cost of JFT block III to us is well over $ 30 Mil.

On J-10C: Pakistan will initially induct somewhere between 72-90 J-10C's in batches. With it's capability unmatched to be the Hi of the PAF, more Mirage units will be replaced with J-10C's. Due to the current financial situation, it's all kept tight lipped not to allow India to spread global propaganda that how "financially distressed Pakistan buying billions of weapons to destroy poor little India"! Once our financial situation starts to improve, in the next 12-24 months, more orders of the J-10C will come out.

TFX will come. Let's not discuss it for now as it's not even test flown yet. 2029-2030 is the year for it per the current plans.

American flags … nawa aya hai soniya?
Zara background dekh lo before repeating like a stuck tape recorder.

Read up on the Azm thread and the design concepts before it was shelved. Look at the videos posted directly from PAC. We already discussed there is no moving forward on the program due to the reasons you mentioned and others so exactly what is the point of posting the same thing?

Share proofs?
Pakistan was aware of J-31 since more than a decade - even the J-20, go look up my posts from 2011 where I mentioned 3 designs and then the Chinese finally broke silence on the alternative design THIS year. As if AHQ will post proofs for you. Your block-Is had mfds shut off mid flight leaving the pilot helpless - go find the proof for it.
As for the Jf-17 - where are you throwing out $50 million from or even answering what question?
I mentioned cost amortization and suddenly US profits come into play?
And yet all you had to do was simply admit you understood the actual cost of the aircraft is much higher due to the production line and training adding onto the unit cost as well.

As for J-10C, what exactly have you added to what I stated? The requirement was for 60 jets - half of which are delivered. If financing was of no issue they could place an order upto a 100 because those poor mirages have to retire someday and the oldest F-16s are showing cracks. Each J-10C cost Pakistan upwards of $50 million - now add the cost of setting up a production line to that, training the workers on that line and so on,
So you don’t see a cost reduction until the 80th jet - and for what? You aren’t exporting - heck you’ve barely sold 19 JF-17s which your planners were boasting to sell hundreds of like the Mig-21.

PAF will get a 5th gen and it may likely be a Chinese jet because no one else will finance it for you - but other than having a rebuild factory it makes absolutely no sense to start building J-10s.

Also, you remain in the category of fanboys.,,

 

[JamD]

@SQ8 is absolutely right about that canard story. I have told this story elsewhere and have confirmed it from not one but two people directly involved.

On topic: the tweets about TFX/MMU with #Azm are especially depressing and pathetic. The delusions of grandeur are mind boggling. Fazool main fix horahay hain lol.