Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[Tank131]

So i think the 90bs are a kind of a mixed bag. There was profound corruption in the acquisition of these vessels, but at the time they were among the best SSK in the world. Beyond that they qeree the first AIP equipped subs in all of Asia.

With respect to TOT we must remember that Pakistan didn't get "full TOT" but rather it got the ability to assemble from kits, so it would have still needed france to supply much of the material. Pakistan gained vital know how in large scale ship construction and assembly. Its shipyards got a lesson on the construction techniques going into large warships and subs. And most importantly in gained the ability to overhaul and refit the subs by knowing in detail how they work. The knowledge gained from these has directly impacted F-22P, Azmat and Hangor class construction.

They could have been had at better terms, but they are good vessels and they remain the only current offensive capability tge PN has.

 

[araz]

So i think the 90bs are a kind of a mixed bag. There was profound corruption in the acquisition of these vessels, but at the time they were among the best SSK in the world. Beyond that they qeree the first AIP equipped subs in all of Asia.

With respect to TOT we must remember that Pakistan didn't get "full TOT" but rather it got the ability to assemble from kits, so it would have still needed france to supply much of the material. Pakistan gained vital know how in large scale ship construction and assembly. Its shipyards got a lesson on the construction techniques going into large warships and subs. And most importantly in gained the ability to overhaul and refit the subs by knowing in detail how they work. The knowledge gained from these has directly impacted F-22P, Azmat and Hangor class construction.

They could have been had at better terms, but they are good vessels and they remain the only current offensive capability tge PN has.

There were a lot of skills acquired with underwater welding. All the CAD designing machinery that was acquired was extensively used in JFT Project. As to be able to assemble things on our own, we dont even have the steel to be able to build a platform of such nature. The double hull of the sub and I believe the frontal sections require technological skills which remained and possibly still are beyond our capabilities. Things have improved somewhat but there still is no specialized steel mill capable of manufacturing the relevant steel in sufficiently large sizes to build the sub. There maybe other associated problems which have not surfaced and perhaps other people can point to.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Technology Transfer is one of most misunderstood and often misused word. The term ‘technology’ is an inherently abstract concept which is difficult to interpret, observe and evaluate.

In the context of developing countries, many perceive TOT in terms of achieving three core objectives: 1) The introduction of new techniques by means of investment of new plants; (2) The improvement of existing techniques and (3) The generation of new knowledge especially in the case of sophisticated machinery or equipment.

However, technology transfer is a complex & difficult process that needs time to evolve. The success of technology transfer, and the economic benefits of technology transfer such as the transmission of the know-how which would enable the recipient to manufacture a particular machinery depends on the state of the recipient country’s human resource capacity & her economic development.

Regrettably Pakistan has not yet developed to the level where it could absorb the skills to design and manufacture a submarine on its own. The entire TOT that Pakistan engineers acquired in the process was probably to assemble a state of the art complex war machine from its component parts.

The same is partly true for AL Khalid MBT. Pakistan only manufactures some parts but the engine and transmission are imported from Ukraine.

The following link is useful to look at the stage of Pakistan’s economic development.

In a sense KSEW technically did get the ability to make submarines, but shipyards in general are at the final stage of warships production. The 3rd boat (PNS Hamza) was constructed indigenously, but as Pakistan did not have competency in ship-grade steel, electronics and propulsion, the materials necessary to manufacture still had to be imported. This can't be thrown at KSEW or the PN alone, for domestic turnkey shipbuilding, we need producers in the key inputs. The good thing about most of these inputs is that they're dual-use (e.g. gas turbines) and getting overseas help to set up shop in Pakistan might be easier (politically speaking) than buying a readymade weapon. Ask MTU, Rolls Royce and Safran about their activities with China.

 

[khanmubashir]

We didn't construct a single submarine after the initial three. Instead we are buying eight more Chinese submarines. What was the whole point of wasting resources for building future submarines that we will never build?

French basically provided us with assembly training and related facilities Augusta parts came from France and were assembled its like saying what's the point of India assembling 100s of su when they can't make a decent teja
But on bright side those assembly facilities would be benfic beneficial in future indigenous projects

 

[Taygibay]

I'm glad to see that Niaz' reminder with context
shined a bit of seriousness on that convo.

The steel mill thing is something that relates to
the OP's question. That should have come along.

Typically, if you are way back in technology you
get at best maintenance TOT on complex systems.
The Indians denounce screwdriver giri enough and
yet it's what comes along that counts because at
first, screwdriver giri is all you can learn and use.

Humour on :
First deal gets you S-giri + screwdriver manufacture.
2nd deal gets you S-giri + steel processing mill.
Humour off.

There is a step by step path to autonomy that is as
dual as anything material where you must improve
civilian technology and grow an effective workforce.

You cannot skim cream off a jar of water.

Great day, good mates, Tay.

 

[Basel]

Hi,

But the Agosta 90B was one of the finest in its class at that time---so---kickbacks aside---pak navy got a great product---.

That's true but question is what ToT was received and why more we're not built if ToT was received?? We still use 2 A-70s which should have been replaced with 2 A-90s.

These men in Green are Pakistan's specialist Submarine technicians.500 of them were trained at Cherbourg shipyard as a result of Agosta contract.

What they do now?? Because we have not built or MLUed A-90s by ourselves.

Agosta was recently modified for cruise missile launch plus agosta fleet is getting RADAR upgrade as well.

We are not Upgrading those A-90s, Turkish company s doing it which means ToT was not done or that capability is lost.

S 139 Hamza, which was commissioned on 26 September
2008 - was constructed entirely in Karachi, with the exception of its MESMA.

Where steel came from??

The ToT KSEW typically receives basically involves material kits from the overseas supplier, be it France, China or Turkey. Even where there's manufacturing work, key inputs - such as ship grade steel, electronics, etc - are taken from the OEM. For Pakistan to have a turnkey shipbuilding industry, it needs competency in the ship design as well as most key inputs, such as steel, composites, electronics and - ideally, one day - gas turbines and engines.

South Korea is ready to build shipyards and help boost ship building capabilities and we show cold response to them.

so pakistan would have limited ability to build subs on its own but the shipyard would undergo upgrades i.e. the lift system which is underway. but theres no news of a dock hall being built where the subs would be built indoors.

Lift system is in place and water filling and releasing system is being installed now.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That's true but question is what ToT was received and why more we're not built if ToT was received?? We still use 2 A-70s which should have been replaced with 2 A-90s.



What they do now?? Because we have not built or MLUed A-90s by ourselves.



We are not Upgrading those A-90s, Turkish company s doing it which means ToT was not done or that capability is lost.



Where steel came from??



South Korea is ready to build shipyards and help boost ship building capabilities and we show cold response to them.



Lift system is in place and water filling and releasing system is being installed now.

It's not just the shipyard. We need China, Ukraine, South Korea, Germany, etc to help us raise industries for each of the key inputs for shipbuilding, e.g. steel, semiconductors, gas turbines, etc. We have zero focus on those (at least as far as the gov't is concerned).

 

[fitpOsitive]

We didn't construct a single submarine after the initial three. Instead we are buying eight more Chinese submarines. What was the whole point of wasting resources for building future submarines that we will never build?

Zerdari & co -> commission! End of ToT. Yeh mila hamain.

 

[Basel]

It's not just the shipyard. We need China, Ukraine, South Korea, Germany, etc to help us raise industries for each of the key inputs for shipbuilding, e.g. steel, semiconductors, gas turbines, etc. We have zero focus on those (at least as far as the gov't is concerned).

Are we doing what is needed to get all those??

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Are we doing what is needed to get all those??

PAC wants to get into gas turbine production, but the for rest, I don't know of any programs.

 

[[--Leo--]]

Answer is simple

Pakistan don't do any research on their product
Instead of building the whole submarine just try toresearch and develop the parts of submarine and keep building the improved version but they don't they just get parts from china ,turkey or france and replace it this is called Pakistani ToT

 

[Adnan81]

Very sad state of affairs of our beloved nation. May Allah Almighty open eyes of key movers & shakers of our nation before its too late.
Ameen

 

[MastanKhan]

That's true but question is what ToT was received and why more we're not built if ToT was received?? We still use 2 A-70s which should have been replaced with 2 A-90s.

Hi,

When young pakistanis use the word TOT---they assume that all and every technology in the equipment is transfered---.

They also assume---that just because they are so clever in talk---they have the ability to absorb it all as well. That is where the stupidity factor comes in.

When a contact is made---some information is tranfered over by default---that won't go away.

The navy engineers and techs did gain a lot building the Agosta 90B---. The next step up would have been the Scorpene---but the govt /navy changed gears for the german subs---.

The primary purpose of getting the Agosta 90B was the submarine itself and not the TOT part---. The TOT part was the gravy attached to the deal---.

Remember---the primary function of a weapon is to be ready and be potent.

After or during the 90B procurement---pakistan chose not to be a business partner with the French---otherwise---more progress would have been made in that department---. Business partner means---a deal for the Rafales and then the Scorpene.

 

[Basel]

Hi,

When young pakistanis use the word TOT---they assume that all and every technology in the equipment is transfered---.

They also assume---that just because they are so clever in talk---they have the ability to absorb it all as well. That is where the stupidity factor comes in.

When a contact is made---some information is tranfered over by default---that won't go away.

The navy engineers and techs did gain a lot building the Agosta 90B---. The next step up would have been the Scorpene---but the govt /navy changed gears for the german subs---.

The primary purpose of getting the Agosta 90B was the submarine itself and not the TOT part---. The TOT part was the gravy attached to the deal---.

Remember---the primary function of a weapon is to be ready and be potent.

After or during the 90B procurement---pakistan chose not to be a business partner with the French---otherwise---more progress would have been made in that department---. Business partner means---a deal for the Rafales and then the Scorpene.

PAF's love for F-16s have caused us dearly, if they had gone for a package deal of subs, fighter jets and avionics for JFTs then things would have been different now.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

When young pakistanis use the word TOT---they assume that all and every technology in the equipment is transfered---.

They also assume---that just because they are so clever in talk---they have the ability to absorb it all as well. That is where the stupidity factor comes in.

When a contact is made---some information is tranfered over by default---that won't go away.

The navy engineers and techs did gain a lot building the Agosta 90B---. The next step up would have been the Scorpene---but the govt /navy changed gears for the german subs---.

The primary purpose of getting the Agosta 90B was the submarine itself and not the TOT part---. The TOT part was the gravy attached to the deal---.

Remember---the primary function of a weapon is to be ready and be potent.

After or during the 90B procurement---pakistan chose not to be a business partner with the French---otherwise---more progress would have been made in that department---. Business partner means---a deal for the Rafales and then the Scorpene.

Correction. In the mid-2000s the French offered the Marlin, which - while based on the Scorpene - also drew from the Barracuda SSN. Also, Pakistan started burning the French bridge in the 1980s by selecting the F-16 over the Mirage 2000. If not for the US becoming a factor, I think the PAF would have bought into a mix of Mirage F-1 and Mirage 2000s in the 1980s, with piecemeal/incremental M2K/-5 orders thereafter.