Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[airmarshal]

I dont know why it was called transfer of technology. I think it was just limited building a submarine with high tech parts imported from France.

The whole transaction was a fable of corruption of Benazir, Zardari and Admiral Mansoor. Zaradari's castle in France is a result of that transaction.

 

[Tank131]

French basically provided us with assembly training and related facilities Augusta parts came from France and were assembled its like saying what's the point of India assembling 100s of su when they can't make a decent teja
But on bright side those assembly facilities would be benfic beneficial in future indigenous projects

There is aalot to be gained from assembly evem if you are not manufacturingmthe syssyst themselves. Firstly, labor locally gets jobs and that becomes an economic stimulus. Then your local labor gets knowhow in modern equipment and assembly techniques. The amount you spend per unit decreases because you built it locally rather than importing it.

That's true but question is what ToT was received and why more we're not built if ToT was received?? We still use 2 A-70s which should have been replaced with 2 A-90s.



What they do now?? Because we have not built or MLUed A-90s by ourselves.



We are not Upgrading those A-90s, Turkish company s doing it which means ToT was not done or that capability is lost.



Where steel came from??



South Korea is ready to build shipyards and help boost ship building capabilities and we show cold response to them.



Lift system is in place and water filling and releasing system is being installed now.

1. The bulk of the of the tot which was acquired was for assembly. They didnt get component and steel manufacturing because that costs much more and Pakistan doesnt doesnt have the local industry setup to manufacter it in house. For example, there is no equivalent to HIT, AWC, or PAC for thr navy. An organization with a manufacturing capacity which includes the ability to manufacture electronics and sensors. Hence why PAC could get TOT for the Grifo 7 and was able to manufacture it in house. Such capabilities dont exist for naval systems which is why it PN didnt acquire full in house manufacturing.

2. PSM dont manufacture ship grade steel and as such the steel was bought from France and local manufacturing didnt get acquired.

3. Regarding upgrades, this has nothing to do with Tot. You are getting brand new systems. As you dont hace industry to manufacture them locally, you also dont have any R&D and design capacity in house, so how could Pakistan have done an upgrade locally with new electronic subsystems. Army has those capabilities,so does the airforce to a far more limited degree, but the navy doesnt, and certainly never in the 90s.

4. If S.korea is indeed looking to or offering to build ships with Pakistan, then Pakistan is stupid if they dont go for it.

Correction. In the mid-2000s the French offered the Marlin, which - while based on the Scorpene - also drew from the Barracuda SSN. Also, Pakistan started burning the French bridge in the 1980s by selecting the F-16 over the Mirage 2000. If not for the US becoming a factor, I think the PAF would have bought into a mix of Mirage F-1 and Mirage 2000s in the 1980s, with piecemeal/incremental M2K/-5 orders thereafter.

There have been many blunders regarding foreign relations and projects done by Pakistans military.
1. Going for F-16 in the first place was dumb. Was it the best available aircraft? No doubt but, there were better options for the PAF politically and industry wise. Firstly, the US had also offered local production and manufacturing of F-20 together which albeit was an upgraded F-5, but local manufacturing of it and its components including turbofans would have been a boon for Pakistan's defense industry, it was a true 4th gen fighter, with ability to fire sparrow bvr missile which PAF never had until MLU and and block 52s roled in.

Secondly they could have gotten Mirage F-1 and M2k but chose F-16 instead. France didn't have the same qualms regarding selling Pakistan weapons that the US did. The F-1 and M2K were both BVR capable fighters and Pakistan could have had that capability and possibly a stronger partnership with France and less fear of sanctions had they stuck with France.

Then there are rumors that even the viggen had been offered to Pakistan in the 80s. Partnering early with Sweden ciuld have lead to induction of the Grippen in 90s.

Too many missed opportunities.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is aalot to be gained from assembly evem if you are not manufacturingmthe syssyst themselves. Firstly, labor locally gets jobs and that becomes an economic stimulus. Then your local labor gets knowhow in modern equipment and assembly techniques. The amount you spend per unit decreases because you built it locally rather than importing it.


1. The bulk of the of the tot which was acquired was for assembly. They didnt get component and steel manufacturing because that costs much more and Pakistan doesnt doesnt have the local industry setup to manufacter it in house. For example, there is no equivalent to HIT, AWC, or PAC for thr navy. An organization with a manufacturing capacity which includes the ability to manufacture electronics and sensors. Hence why PAC could get TOT for the Grifo 7 and was able to manufacture it in house. Such capabilities dont exist for naval systems which is why it PN didnt acquire full in house manufacturing.

2. PSM dont manufacture ship grade steel and as such the steel was bought from France and local manufacturing didnt get acquired.

3. Regarding upgrades, this has nothing to do with Tot. You are getting brand new systems. As you dont hace industry to manufacture them locally, you also dont have any R&D and design capacity in house, so how could Pakistan have done an upgrade locally with new electronic subsystems. Army has those capabilities,so does the airforce to a far more limited degree, but the navy doesnt, and certainly never in the 90s.

4. If S.korea is indeed looking to or offering to build ships with Pakistan, then Pakistan is stupid if they dont go for it.


There have been many blunders regarding foreign relations and projects done by Pakistans military.
1. Going for F-16 in the first place was dumb. Was it the best available aircraft? No doubt but, there were better options for the PAF politically and industry wise. Firstly, the US had also offered local production and manufacturing of F-20 together which albeit was an upgraded F-5, but local manufacturing of it and its components including turbofans would have been a boon for Pakistan's defense industry, it was a true 4th gen fighter, with ability to fire sparrow bvr missile which PAF never had until MLU and and block 52s roled in.

Secondly they could have gotten Mirage F-1 and M2k but chose F-16 instead. France didn't have the same qualms regarding selling Pakistan weapons that the US did. The F-1 and M2K were both BVR capable fighters and Pakistan could have had that capability and possibly a stronger partnership with France and less fear of sanctions had they stuck with France.

Then there are rumors that even the viggen had been offered to Pakistan in the 80s. Partnering early with Sweden ciuld have lead to induction of the Grippen in 90s.

Too many missed opportunities.

The Swedes couldn't work out due to the fall-out of 1971, but Pakistan's ties with France could have been developed through the 1980s. Yes, the Mirage 2000 was a very costly aircraft (even in the 1980s). I don't think the PAF would have been able to buy more than 24 in the 1980s, with another 8-12 by the mid-1990s.

However, the net-outcome would have been about the same in the 1990s as having 32 F-16s that couldn't be flown for very long due to the paucity of spare parts.

The French had also offered the Mirage F-1 with local manufacturing in Pakistan along with a giant stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines. Those could have been bought in force to compensate for fewer Mirage 2000s, perhaps even be equipped with the same subsystems as the Mirage 2000 (i.e. Mirage F-1 F2000).

 

[Tank131]

The Swedes couldn't work out due to the fall-out of 1971, but Pakistan's ties with France could have been developed through the 1980s. Yes, the Mirage 2000 was a very costly aircraft (even in the 1980s). I don't think the PAF would have been able to buy more than 24 in the 1980s, with another 8-12 by the mid-1990s.

However, the net-outcome would have been about the same in the 1990s as having 32 F-16s that couldn't be flown for very long due to the paucity of spare parts.

The French had also offered the Mirage F-1 with local manufacturing in Pakistan along with a giant stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines. Those could have been bought in force to compensate for fewer Mirage 2000s, perhaps even be equipped with the same subsystems as the Mirage 2000 (i.e. Mirage F-1 F2000).

Just look at what the israelis have done with Kfir block 60. Its truly remarkable how advaced that old Mirage 5 airfame has allowed it to be. A Mirage F-1 would have been an awsome start for Pakistan and could easily have been upgraded with what was learned from studying its subsystems to develop an advanced jet manufacturing capability and avionics facilities. Alas it was not to be.

 

[MastanKhan]

I dont know why it was called transfer of technology. I think it was just limited building a submarine with high tech parts imported from France.

The whole transaction was a fable of corruption of Benazir, Zardari and Admiral Mansoor. Zaradari's castle in France is a result of that transaction.

Hi,

The issue of corruption on a premium weapons system is not as simple---.

You have to see what you got in return---it was one of the best subs of its time in the region and it would last longer than the british subs that were being proposed---.

I wish someone had taken the bribe and gotten us the 36 Rafales in 2003/04---.

 

[araz]

Just look at what the israelis have done with Kfir block 60. Its truly remarkable how advaced that old Mirage 5 airfame has allowed it to be. A Mirage F-1 would have been an awsome start for Pakistan and could easily have been upgraded with what was learned from studying its subsystems to develop an advanced jet manufacturing capability and avionics facilities. Alas it was not to be.

Agreed however you need to be at a certain stavs in your development to adopt a system a d make it progress. What evidence do we have that we were capable of doing what was being asked of us.
I think in principle it is a good idea but nations progress atctheir own speed and so does technology. We have been offered many things but what lies behind these offers is something that never comes out.
A

 

[TOPGUN]

If we had TOT then PN should have built a few but they didn't.

 

[Inception-06]

I dont know why it was called transfer of technology. I think it was just limited building a submarine with high tech parts imported from France.

The whole transaction was a fable of corruption of Benazir, Zardari and Admiral Mansoor. Zaradari's castle in France is a result of that transaction.

In June 2010, French investigators raided the house of Amir Lodhi, and handed over the important documents relating the defence deals to the NAB. The reports confiscated by the French investigators revealed to have found in regards involvement of former President Asif Ali Zardari who had have received €33 million while Amir Lodhi's share was €2.9 million.

About the case study and trial of the Haq, former chief of naval staff, Adm. Abdul Aziz Mirza reportedly quoted in the news media that "former Naval Chief Mansurul haq was not convicted of Agosta kickbacks but for the bribes he had pocketed in other defence deals."In 2003–05, Haq returned a total sum of $7.5 million while in office, which were immediately shifted back to Navy's national account.:71[27]:content[28] The amount was said to be enough to pay the salaries of entire navy for two years.

 

[Tank131]

Do people even read,the thread or do they just open the first page and put their thoughts in the reply link? Many members have explained the various levels of ToT and why more were not built.

1. ToT can mean you get anywhere from a transfer of a few components worth of tech all the way up to the entire system. Turkey for example acquired everything from the Italians for the T-129. India on the otherhand acquired assembly for the MKI (from kits that come from Russia). Pakistan acquired capabilities for assembly (along the same line as India did from MKI). The components all come from France, as does the steel (pakistan's steel mills cant produce ship grade steel). But the assembly of the sub is still a huge boon for PN. It gave PN the knowhow in modern ship building and instilled the techniques and skills necessary in KSEW to go on to projects like F-22P and Azmat. It gave Pakistanis jobs and it allowed for Pakistan to be able to service and maintain the subs in house.

 

[ali_raza]

the million dollars question is why pakistan didn’t went for marlins or scorpions after agosta

 

[Arsalan]

the million dollars question is why pakistan didn’t went for marlins or scorpions after agosta

May be because it was a question of million dollars!!

 

[MastanKhan]

Just look at what the israelis have done with Kfir block 60. Its truly remarkable how advaced that old Mirage 5 airfame has allowed it to be. A Mirage F-1 would have been an awsome start for Pakistan and could easily have been upgraded with what was learned from studying its subsystems to develop an advanced jet manufacturing capability and avionics facilities. Alas it was not to be.

Hi,

If you read up on USAF's history---you would find that there were colonels and generals in the USAF---who were as big an imbeciles as the generals of Paf---.

A powerful military figure in the usaf wanted the F15 to be just a pure fighter aircraft---without any fancy gadgets---and these idiots had their say and their supporters in the usaf---. But fortunately for the usaf---saner heads prevailed---.

So---the disease that is so obvious with the pakistani PAF generals is not very unique to them.

If the Paf had taken the Mirage F1---it would have had the JF17's capability in the 80's---.

Now 37 years down the road---and the pakistani air force and its generals are bragging about the JF17---how ironic.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

The issue of corruption on a premium weapons system is not as simple---.

You have to see what you got in return---it was one of the best subs of its time in the region and it would last longer than the british subs that were being proposed---.

I wish someone had taken the bribe and gotten us the 36 Rafales in 2003/04---.

One might argue that even getting 18 Rafales might have "tainted" the fighter enough for India to avoid it It's like licking the cookie and putting it back on the plate.

 

[Tank131]

One might argue that even getting 18 Rafales might have "tainted" the fighter enough for India to avoid it It's like licking the cookie and putting it back on the plate.

Not sure that this is true. I have a suspicion that the IAF will go for theb F-16IN. Both have operated same aircraft in the past. If it would mean screwing the PAF out of the spares or advantages of their own fighter, india will do it. But the French (had PAF gotten M2k and Rafale) would have been able to be kept in Pakistans sphere a little better.

 

[MastanKhan]

One might argue that even getting 18 Rafales might have "tainted" the fighter enough for India to avoid it It's like licking the cookie and putting it back on the plate.

Hi,

Indeed that number would have done the trick---French were desperate to sell the Rafale at that time.

The production had slowed down to a crawl---engineers and techs were not getting enough time at the assembly line---and there was this worry that if the Rafale did not sell---the fighter aircraft business of France would come to an end---.

As engineers and technicians would lose their jobs and no workers replacing them---the end of french fighter aircraft industry was very real

And PAF was in a position to obligate the French---to be the life saver---the one who threw the life line---but PAF chose to do otherwise---.

Played their drama---and then walked away.