Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Pakistani Fanboys have an exaggerated understanding of TOT.

They just simply cannot understand and comprehend the nations limitations in abosrbing the technology---.

The misunderstanding of ToT deflected attention away from the lack of proper industrial development. We've been duped into thinking they're self-reliant when in reality they aren't; for bad policymakers, saying we make subs and planes is a lot sexier than talking about steel, composites, gas turbines, semi-conductors, etc. It's also a lot cheaper in the near-term and lends to near-term results.

In of itself, such off-the-shell purchases with 'ToT' are fine, you get valuable expertise in bringing inputs together to produce the end-product and fulfill near-term needs.

But it has to be tempered with the reality that it doesn't equal self-reliance, which necessitate the inputs, and our leaders were/are negligent on that front for 60+ years. We are feeling the pinch of that deficiency today, e.g. half-baked ToT and lack of high-value exports (which we could fill using industrial goods) to prop-up our foreign-currency reserves and give our currency lift.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Thank you---the more we dig into it---the more we find out how incompetent the PAF generals were---.

Having the production line of Mirage F1's in pakistan in the 80's would be what I wrote earlier---a 2018 capable JF17 aircraft in PAF's inventory in the 1980's---.

Why do I say the Paf generals are TRAITORS to pakistan---the proof is in the pudding---. Their deceit and deception has ruined pakistans leadership in air defence and strike capabilities in the arena---.

Sohail Aman is of the same school---he also firmly believes in the myth of the " man behind the machine " mentality---.

The only TRAITOR is the one trying to spread suspicion into young minds. Those Mirages would be a garland of garlic around our necks today. They would need very expensive maintenance, and eternal dependence on France. And with India's order of Rafales, Pakistan would be begging on its knees to keep its most crucial supplier willing to supply spares. The decision to not touch the Mirages has turned out to be Allah's Blessing upon us. It is what set the PAF's sights on an indigenous aircraft, and led to today's version B and upcoming Block 3 of the Thunder. Hats off to PAF's leadership in the early 1990s who, against all odds and contrary to all evidence, made the boldest and most daring decision ever made.

Now wash your tongue with carbolic soap for the filth you are spewing about Sohail Aman. He is a million times the man than scumbags like yourself.

@WebMaster @The Eagle @waz @Horus I ask you, what is the purpose of this forum? To spew hate, single out SERVING OFFICERS OF PAKISTAN FORCES by name and call them traitors in public? Why are you supporting organized vitriol against our armed forces?

 

[volatile]

ToT is a big word considering Pakistan and other underdeveloped countries , we lack in human skills and material skills in this regard only force which makes some effort and were able to see this deficiency is Air Force rest PA,PN both are pretty much in operator mode ,Its a waste since no private ventures are part of any defence project and in military they teach you to be straight forward and follow orders

 

[Sine Nomine]

The only TRAITOR is the one trying to spread suspicion into young minds. Those Mirages would be a garland of garlic around our necks today. They would need very expensive maintenance, and eternal dependence on France. And with India's order of Rafales, Pakistan would be begging on its knees to keep its most crucial supplier willing to supply spares. The decision to not touch the Mirages has turned out to be Allah's Blessing upon us. It is what set the PAF's sights on an indigenous aircraft, and led to today's version B and upcoming Block 3 of the Thunder. Hats off to PAF's leadership in the early 1990s who, against all odds and contrary to all evidence, made the boldest and most daring decision ever made.

Now wash your tongue with carbolic soap for the filth you are spewing about Sohail Aman. He is a million times the man than scumbags like yourself.

@WebMaster @The Eagle @waz @Horus I ask you, what is the purpose of this forum? To spew hate, single out SERVING OFFICERS OF PAKISTAN FORCES by name and call them traitors in public? Why are you supporting organized vitriol against our armed forces?

Easy lad,counter his argument with facts.
Don't you remember what happened in Kargil?
our soldiers were being pinned down by enemy AF and our AF was nowhere.
Behind all doubts not going for a assembly line in 80's was a terrible mistake at our end.
Look today,400 4th Gen Fighters of IAF vs 176 PAF fighters,what will be outcome of war when enemy has all these assets backed by state of the art SAM and SATs?
No one is above criticism,nor any General,Politican or bureaucrats.

 

[CriticalThought]

Easy lad,counter his argument with facts.
Don't you remember what happened in Kargil?
our soldiers were being pinned down by enemy AF and our AF was nowhere.
Behind all doubts not going for a assembly line in 80's was a terrible mistake at our end.
Look today,400 4th Gen Fighters of IAF vs 176 PAF fighters,what will be outcome of war when enemy has all these assets backed by state of the art SAM and SATs?
No one is above criticism,nor any General,Politican or bureaucrats.

Criticize them for the right reasons, that's all I ask. Till Zia Marhoom's devise, you cannot say the PAF had its own policy. In the immediate aftermath of his Shahadah, we had the likes of Benazir who wanted wheat instead of fighters. Instead of giving credit to the top brass for quietly supporting this 'de-mock racy' we are calling them traitors? With these type of civilian leaders, and the hatred and deceit of Western governments evident, the unprecedented step to go indigenous was taken.

The boys pinned down on the other side were always on their own. There was never even a plan to give air cover because that would start a full war. This is evidenced by the fact that the Air Chief wasn't even taken into confidence. It was Musharraf's gambit that India would quietly swallow it's pride. And it may have been forced to do so if a certain Nawaz Sharif, the darling of Modi's eyes, hadn't rushed to Washington. But the situation wasn't totally bleak because the Indians lost two war planes to shoulder fired missiles. If anything, it is a black spot on Indian airforce to lose aircraft like that. The airforce did whatever it could given the limited budget and the situation of sanctions after nuclear tests.

This man is deceiving young minds. A young Pakistani will think, if his posts containing such serious charges are left on PDF, then there must be truth in them. And once he gets the reader in a certain frame of mind, he uses that to turn people against actively serving officers. Do you want someone in the next batch of inductees to read his posts, and hold hatred for our top leadership? I don't understand why his posts are even kept. Why are they not systematically deleted, and he is not kicked out of here? A few weeks ago he was paired up with his buddy CombatMaster who later revealed his flags to be Indian, running circles over Thunder's ability to fire even BVR missiles. And you are telling me to counter his with arguments? A kick on the a$$ is what he needs, not some 'arguments'.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This is evidenced by the fact that the Air Chief wasn't even taken into confidence.

If Indian Attacks today,Do you think Indians would take our AF into confidence before strikeing us?

 

[SipahSalar]

If Indian Attacks today,Do you think Indians would take our AF into confidence before strikeing us?

They most certainly will. Our Airforce and Army maintain a healthy 2:1 deterrence and will have the defenders advantage.

 

[CriticalThought]

If Indian Attacks today,Do you think Indians would take our AF into confidence before strikeing us?

Our armed forces have prepared themselves holistically for Indian attacks. I'll go one step further and say this: IF India COULD attack, it would have attacked by now. There is too much latent hatred in Hindu fundamentalists to not attack us if they could. They can't attack, and they haven't attacked. Alhamdulillah. So what's the point?

 

[Sine Nomine]

They most certainly will. Our Airforce and Army maintain a healthy 2:1 deterrence and will have the defenders advantage.

In today's world there is only deterrence known as nukes,rest at conventional level the one has advantage enjoys flexibility of planning an attack at will and place of choice.
Defenders are sitting ducks in today's environment.

Our armed forces have prepared themselves holistically for Indian attacks. I'll go one step further and say this: IF India COULD attack, it would have attacked by now. There is too much latent hatred in Hindu fundamentalists to not attack us if they could. They can't attack, and they haven't attacked. Alhamdulillah. So what's the point?

Only Nukes are keeping then checked,otherwise they know wisdom of our Generals after edisodes of 71,Siachen and kargil,and above all WOT.

 

[CriticalThought]

In today's world there is only deterrence known as nukes,rest at conventional level the one has advantage enjoys flexibility of planning an attack at will and place of choice.
Defenders are sitting ducks in today's environment.


Only Nukes are keeping then checked,otherwise they know wisdom of our Generals after edisodes of 71,Siachen and kargil,and above all WOT.

What's the point you are trying to make here? Do you want to label serving officers of armed forces as 'traitors'? What are you trying to prove?

 

[SipahSalar]

In today's world there is only deterrence known as nukes,rest at conventional level the one has advantage enjoys flexibility of planning an attack at will and place of choice.
Defenders are sitting ducks in today's environment.

Not really. Pakistan maintains a healthy nuclear AND conventional deterrence. You don't just wake up one day and decide to go to war with the 6th largest army in the world.
Anyways, lets focus on the topic.

 

[Sine Nomine]

What's the point you are trying to make here? Do you want to label serving officers of armed forces as 'traitors'? What are you trying to prove?

There is difference between being Inept and Traitor.

 

[CriticalThought]

There is difference between being Inept and Traitor.

An the reason why I am so riled up is that the word 'traitor' is used without any reason.

 

[Sine Nomine]

An the reason why I am so riled up is that the word 'traitor' is used without any reason.

That is favourite word of our Generals also,i haven't a Traitor being prosecuted.

 

[313ghazi]

Too much BS being spewed on this thread. It is well known that the Agosta deal had kickbacks involved but that is not the reason we didn't manufacture more. The main reason for that was poverty. You still have to pay for the parts! The war on terror coupled with 10 years of corruption between ppp and PMLN has left us in a poor financial position. Tech evolves - hence the Chinese deal. We even lost a contract to manufacture them for Malaysia after a terror attack which killed French engineers. Its the same story as J10.

Mirage F1 was the same. It was an expensive foreign plane (nowhere near as capable as Jf17 btw) but Benazir and Ganja were too busy looting to let us buy something like that.

I've noticed you guys have a habit of doing that. It happened with the F-16's early on, with F-20 (was offered with TOT later but you guys refused), the Hawkeye in the 80's, but you guys got upset again asking for only E3-C, the BVR's (Sparrow were offered), Augusta TOT and the French wanted a Rafale contract as a follow up, and they would've helped you setup an entire manufacturing line of Augusta's with even Scorpion tech, which was just a modern version of the Augusta's tech. So I don't know how to comment on this issue anymore. Very sad waste of talent for sure and $$.

Money. In both occasions we were broke.