Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[CriticalThought]

That is favourite word of our Generals also,i haven't a Traitor being prosecuted.

There is such a thing as self-respect. This is an international forum. Forget what our generals say in private. Do you have the self-respect to feel anger when a national institution or serving officers within are attacked publicly without any evidence?

 

[Sine Nomine]

There is such a thing as self-respect. This is an international forum. Forget what our generals say in private. Do you have the self-respect to feel anger when a national institution or serving officers within are attacked publicly without any evidence?

He may be a loud mouth,but what he says is quite true.

 

[CriticalThought]

He may be a loud mouth,but what he says is quite true.

No it isn't. Here is my interpretation. His a$$ burns every time he sees PAF no longer under the thumb of his master's. To prove his loyalty, he needs to spew vitriol every now and then using baseless allegations.

If at some point in history some serious 'treasonous' decision was made, then I would rather have PAF conduct an inquiry, and publish the findings. In the absence of such, anyone who publicly abuses a serving officer without any evidence will have a confrontation with me.

 

[bafxet]

French are masters of corruption.

But Admiral Mansoor ul Haq was also not far behind...Alas this land is very fertile in producing corrupt people....in every walk of life.

 

[Sine Nomine]

No it isn't. Here is my interpretation. His a$$ burns every time he sees PAF no longer under the thumb of his master's. To prove his loyalty, he needs to spew vitriol every now and then using baseless allegations.

Whatever,they barely need to keep an AF eqipped with just 176 4th Gen Aircraft under there thumbs,when they have a full Sq of F-22 stationed 200km from Durand line.

If at some point in history some serious 'treasonous' decision was made, then I would rather have PAF conduct an inquiry, and publish the findings. In the absence of such, anyone who publicly abuses a serving officer without any evidence will have a confrontation with me.

We Pakistani's don't dare to face truth.

 

[CriticalThought]

Whatever,they barely need to keep an AF eqipped with just 176 4th Gen Aircraft under there thumbs,when they have a full Sq of F-22 stationed 200km from Durand line.

We Pakistani's don't dare to face truth.

You are presenting arguments for the sake of it but this only weakens your point. What would those F-1 or Mirages do even if we had a 100 of them against a squadron of F-22s?

Meanwhile, in other news, J-10s and Thunders performed an airshow shortly after news of F-22 in Afghanistan came out. So the 'traitors' are doing everything in their power to save this country. At the same time, in yesterday's show, Dr Shahid Masood said that Khawaja Asif's irresponsible tweet caused a diplomatic backlash and we narrowly avoided the list. Of course you are completely unconcerned about the high treason being committed by politicians so blatantly. The country is facing incredible turmoil and internal and external pressures, and people like you are defending an old fart who is spewing garbage about our serving officers. Well done!!!

 

[Sine Nomine]

You are presenting arguments for the sake of it but this only weakens your point. What would those F-1 or Mirages do even if we had a 100 of them against a squadron of F-22s?

They would be backing our 5th Gen Platforms,which we would be acquiring soon.Numbers lad Numbers,US has just 195 F22's backed by 456 F-15 and 900+ F-16's.

Of course you are completely unconcerned about the high treason being committed by politicians so blatantly.

Why world's no 1 Intel Agency is not registering a case against them,i am sure Chapter VI (OFFENCES AGAINST THE STATE)to Chapter VIII(OFFENCES AGAINST THE PUBLIC TRANQUILLITY) of PPC have enough space to deal with all of these bastards.But the truth is that this would'nt happen because we are not capable to do it.

 

[Trango Towers]

We didn't construct a single submarine after the initial three. Instead we are buying eight more Chinese submarines. What was the whole point of wasting resources for building future submarines that we will never build?

Building a submarine gives you the ability to construct large scale engineering project but it doesn't give you the design ability. You cannot simply just build a submarine. The French didn't give us the total A2Z of sub design and construction. So although we can build we cannot design and develop as that requires huge sub industry. We are taking steps in the right direction but it will take time

 

[Tank131]

@CriticalThought ,

My friend, i believe youare missing the point of the issue in the early 90s. The fact that Pakistan went with 40 F-16s seems like it would have been a good move given that it was far and away the best fighter in Asia when they got it. However, there were a number of alternatives that, while not being better fighters than the F-16, would have had a better impact on PAF.

1st is the F-20 tigershark. This derivative of the F-5 was eventually cancelled due to lack of interest in the export market but it was a true 4th gen fighter with 2 huge advantages for PAF at the time. 1) it was coming with the sparrow missile (which had a 45km range) and 2) all components including the GE-404 AND APG-67 radar (which had 148km range and also equipped the F-CK-1 from taiwan) were offered for local construction (similar to what Turkey does for F-16). It was offerd up for PAF to take over ownership of the design and PAF turned it down due to lack of interest from other countries.

2) The mirage F-1 was also offered in a similar fashion to the F-20 but this is more of a 3.5 gen fighter as it had no turbofan (was equipped with SNECMA Atar 09K-50, although later variants were offered with the SNECMA M53 from M2K). Local component manufacturing was also offered and it came with 6300kg capacity and 7 hardpoints which could be equipped with 37km Super 530 BVR missile (later replaced by MICA).

Thet were definitely less capable aircraft with greater limitations compared to the F-16 but they offered BVR where the F-16 didnt (it wasnt offered with Sparrow as the F-20 was) and PAF could build them in house. They could be further developed or their components could form the base for Pakistans own defense industry. They would be 20-30 years further along than they are. They basically decided to take a fish rather than learn to fish.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@CriticalThought ,

My friend, i believe youare missing the point of the issue in the early 90s. The fact that Pakistan went with 40 F-16s seems like it would have been a good move given that it was far and away the best fighter in Asia when they got it. However, there were a number of alternatives that, while not being better fighters than the F-16, would have had a better impact on PAF.

1st is the F-20 tigershark. This derivative of the F-5 was eventually cancelled due to lack of interest in the export market but it was a true 4th gen fighter with 2 huge advantages for PAF at the time. 1) it was coming with the sparrow missile (which had a 45km range) and 2) all components including the GE-404 AND APG-67 radar (which had 148km range and also equipped the F-CK-1 from taiwan) were offered for local construction (similar to what Turkey does for F-16). It was offerd up for PAF to take over ownership of the design and PAF turned it down due to lack of interest from other countries.

2) The mirage F-1 was also offered in a similar fashion to the F-20 but this is more of a 3.5 gen fighter as it had no turbofan (was equipped with SNECMA Atar 09K-50, although later variants were offered with the SNECMA M53 from M2K). Local component manufacturing was also offered and it came with 6300kg capacity and 7 hardpoints which could be equipped with 37km Super 530 BVR missile (later replaced by MICA).

Thet were definitely less capable aircraft with greater limitations compared to the F-16 but they offered BVR where the F-16 didnt (it wasnt offered with Sparrow as the F-20 was) and PAF could build them in house. They could be further developed or their components could form the base for Pakistans own defense industry. They would be 20-30 years further along than they are,

In hindsight, the Mirage F-1 could have been further developed through the 1990s with South Africa's support, e.g. BVR via the R-Darter, HMS via the Denel Archer and the SMR-93 turbofan engine from Russia (when Russia was first interested in selling equipment to Pakistan). Imagine having 2~3 squadrons of these fighters by Kargil along with BVR, SOW (via Raptor-I/II) and possibly even an ALCM (basic Torgos).

 

[MultaniGuy]

We definitely need to improve our Navy. I heard we are getting 8 Qing Submarines from China by 2028.

 

[CriticalThought]

@CriticalThought ,

My friend, i believe youare missing the point of the issue in the early 90s. The fact that Pakistan went with 40 F-16s seems like it would have been a good move given that it was far and away the best fighter in Asia when they got it. However, there were a number of alternatives that, while not being better fighters than the F-16, would have had a better impact on PAF.

1st is the F-20 tigershark. This derivative of the F-5 was eventually cancelled due to lack of interest in the export market but it was a true 4th gen fighter with 2 huge advantages for PAF at the time. 1) it was coming with the sparrow missile (which had a 45km range) and 2) all components including the GE-404 AND APG-67 radar (which had 148km range and also equipped the F-CK-1 from taiwan) were offered for local construction (similar to what Turkey does for F-16). It was offerd up for PAF to take over ownership of the design and PAF turned it down due to lack of interest from other countries.

2) The mirage F-1 was also offered in a similar fashion to the F-20 but this is more of a 3.5 gen fighter as it had no turbofan (was equipped with SNECMA Atar 09K-50, although later variants were offered with the SNECMA M53 from M2K). Local component manufacturing was also offered and it came with 6300kg capacity and 7 hardpoints which could be equipped with 37km Super 530 BVR missile (later replaced by MICA).

Thet were definitely less capable aircraft with greater limitations compared to the F-16 but they offered BVR where the F-16 didnt (it wasnt offered with Sparrow as the F-20 was) and PAF could build them in house. They could be further developed or their components could form the base for Pakistans own defense industry. They would be 20-30 years further along than they are. They basically decided to take a fish rather than learn to fish.

In hindsight, the Mirage F-1 could have been further developed through the 1990s with South Africa's support, e.g. BVR via the R-Darter, HMS via the Denel Archer and the SMR-93 turbofan engine from Russia (when Russia was first interested in selling equipment to Pakistan). Imagine having 2~3 squadrons of these fighters by Kargil along with BVR, SOW (via Raptor-I/II) and possibly even an ALCM (basic Torgos).

Before I agree, I would need details of this local construction. Would we be allowed to export without political restrictions? For example, we can in principle sell Thunder to North Korea. The platform has no restrictions, the threat of ensuing sanctions is different.

Would we be allowed to make unlimited modifications? How much 'construction' was on the cards? Going by the other example of Western ToT - the Agosta - I don't believe there would be much ToT. Look the Chinese brothers have setup CnC lathe machines for us. THIS is truly called teaching a man how to fish. The Chinese didn't wait for an indigenous technological base to mushroom in the country. They have created the base from grounds up. And I am pretty sure these other projects would never go to such depths. And I can solidify my argument by giving the example of India. With billions more to spend, the Russians duped them with SU-30 MKI and the French are taking them along for a ride. Even the Americans are not willing to transfer all the tech for F-16. And even being the darling of the West, India still doesn't have an indigenous fighter that is not a joke.

It is the vision and forethought of our leaders that has allowed us to avoid the same fate as India and becoming another joke in the world.

I am sorry but I see people here getting impressed by superficial things without paying any attention to detail, and without comparing the fate of other so called ToT programmes run by these countries, and some other countries as well.

They would be backing our 5th Gen Platforms,which we would be acquiring soon.Numbers lad Numbers,US has just 195 F22's backed by 456 F-15 and 900+ F-16's.

Why world's no 1 Intel Agency is not registering a case against them,i am sure Chapter VI (OFFENCES AGAINST THE STATE)to Chapter VIII(OFFENCES AGAINST THE PUBLIC TRANQUILLITY) of PPC have enough space to deal with all of these bastards.But the truth is that this would'nt happen because we are not capable to do it.

Right. Let me translate what you are implying here. If Pakistan had gone down the route of Mirages, then it would have won the Kargil war and could have taken on the USAF, complete with F-22 and all other assets that USAF has.

Pffffffffffffft. @WebMaster Dear Sir, please create a new title called "Keyboard Warrior Clown" and grant it to @MastanKhan and @MUSTAKSHAF Thank you in advance for your expeditious resolution of the matter. With warm regards, @CriticalThought

LOLz!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Before I agree, I would need details of this local construction. Would we be allowed to export without political restrictions? For example, we can in principle sell Thunder to North Korea. The platform has no restrictions, the threat of ensuing sanctions is different.

Would we be allowed to make unlimited modifications? How much 'construction' was on the cards? Going by the other example of Western ToT - the Agosta - I don't believe there would be much ToT. Look the Chinese brothers have setup CnC lathe machines for us. THIS is truly called teaching a man how to fish. The Chinese didn't wait for an indigenous technological base to mushroom in the country. They have created the base from grounds up. And I am pretty sure these other projects would never go to such depths. And I can solidify my argument by giving the example of India. With billions more to spend, the Russians duped them with SU-30 MKI and the French are taking them along for a ride. Even the Americans are not willing to transfer all the tech for F-16. And even being the darling of the West, India still doesn't have an indigenous fighter that is not a joke.

It is the vision and forethought of our leaders that has allowed us to avoid the same fate as India and becoming another joke in the world.

I am sorry but I see people here getting impressed by superficial things without paying any attention to detail, and without comparing the fate of other so called ToT programmes run by these countries, and some other countries as well

From my understanding, the French made the Mirage F-1 offer to the PAF in the 1980s because Dassault had moved on from the legacy Mirage platform (i.e. III/5 and F-1). In other words, no restrictions on how the fighters can be modified and used besides the inherent technical limitations of the design.

When the PAF was looking at producing its own fighter in the 1980s, the idea was that most of it would be manufactured in-house at PAC. Hence in the words of a well-known retired PAF Air Commodore, the F-1 was offered with ToT "lock, stock and barrel" - i.e. Pakistan would take over the manufacturing of the fighter.

Overall, it wouldn't have been much different from PAC co-producing the JF-17 today, i.e. manufacture 58% of the sub-assemblies, locally assemble the avionics and do final assembly. Based on what the old PAF guys were saying about the F-1, it seemed Dassault was fine with PAC doing almost all of the sub-assembly work. France offered to handover a stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines, but it was indifferent to what Pakistan could have done with the fighter. Some years later we saw South Africa modify the Mirage III and F-1 into the Cheetah and Super Mirage F-1, respectively.

However, whether it be JF-17 or the Mirage F-1, we are still referring to the manufacturing process. In other words, having ToT for either didn't mean that Pakistan would source the critical inputs (like steel, electronics, etc) indigenously. We simply don't have the base for either at this time. Even in the case of the JF-17, the core inputs are coming from other places. I suppose having the F-1 manufacturing through the 1990s might have pushed the PAF to consider it sooner (as opposed to now in the lead-up of Project Azm).

Basically, the Mirage F-1 would have been the JF-17 before the JF-17, and its successor in the PAF would have been Project Azm much earlier.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The Mirage F1 is certainly a more capable fighter then the Mirage III/V series. However, in the 80s, we were the darling of the US and didn't have the foresight to establish a local manufacturing for fighter jets, even though we had the precedent set in terms of ownership of design of the SAAB's MFI-17 (Mushak).
Still F-16 even back then was a superior fighter and hence the AF went ahead and pushed for it, and did secure it.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and we can argue the merits of decisions made in the past. I for one think they should have done both, manufacture the Mirage F1 to replace F-6s/A-5s and procure, as they did, the F-16 at the high end platform.

 

[CriticalThought]

From my understanding, the French made the Mirage F-1 offer to the PAF in the 1980s because Dassault had moved on from the legacy Mirage platform (i.e. III/5 and F-1). In other words, no restrictions on how the fighters can be modified and used besides the inherent technical limitations of the design.

When the PAF was looking at producing its own fighter in the 1980s, the idea was that most of it would be manufactured in-house at PAC. Hence in the words of a well-known retired PAF Air Commodore, the F-1 was offered with ToT "lock, stock and barrel" - i.e. Pakistan would take over the manufacturing of the fighter.

Overall, it wouldn't have been much different from PAC co-producing the JF-17 today, i.e. manufacture 58% of the sub-assemblies, locally assemble the avionics and do final assembly. Based on what the old PAF guys were saying about the F-1, it seemed Dassault was fine with PAC doing almost all of the sub-assembly work. France offered to handover a stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines, but it was indifferent to what Pakistan could have done with the fighter. Some years later we saw South Africa modify the Mirage III and F-1 into the Cheetah and Super Mirage F-1, respectively.

There you go. They would handover a stockpile of engines from the 80s era, and no guarantees of avionics.

What about engine repairs? What about new versions of engines? Like RD-93 now develops into RD-93 MA. What about avionics? Let's take a stroll down memory lane. When the Thunder was first revealed circa 2004, the internet was full of derisive comments like 'if we don't give them missiles it would be useless'. The only reason why today we can talk about the Spanish Indra is because our Chinese brothers have helped us develop a potent finished product and people are now forced to sit-up and take notice. They now realize there is business to be had that will otherwise go to the Chinese.

So far what we have seen, these other programs are sounding like a VERY BAD idea.