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Pakistan to give access to Russia to warm Water

Indian-Russian relationship is unique. It is anchored and rooted in an emotional connect, because Russia has been India’s friend in critical moments of history.
Russia is the one of the few country that strongly affirmed its backing for India in its quest for a permanent seat in the U.N. Security Council. :azn:

It's nice to see a good move between Pakistan-Russia relationship. :woot:
 
While I was stationed at the old US Embassy in Karachi (used as the US Consulate building now) in January 1965 Foreign Minister Bhutto started a or the rumor that he was told by the USSR Oil and Gas Exploration Team based out of Karachi that they had found natural gas and oil deposits in the Rann of Kutch. Some thought then that this Russian origins rumor caused Pakistan to cross the agreed border in the Rann of Kutch onto the Indian side in order to occupy the land sites where perhaps oil and gas had been found by the USSR team. Problem with this scenario is the USSR Oil and Gas Team was restricted to explorations and test drilling ONLY on the Pakistan side of the Rann. Curious dicotomy.

POINT being that even in 1965 the USSR was looking for an excuse or vehicle to justify USSR Navy fleet visits in the Port of Karachi...while Pakistan back then was still a signatory to both the CENTO and SEATO Treaties, both of which were designed to hem in and isolate the old USSR during the then very active Cold War.

Stalin in 1944/45 temporarily occupied the richest Iranian oil and gas fields in the Northern parts of Iran, when it was clear that the Nazis were no longer a threat on that front...however, the other Allies (US, UK, France in particular) threatened hot military action to drive the USSR troops out by force...and Stalin, who still depended heavily on the Allies for wartime logistics quickly withdrew his troops from Iran.

Stalins goal per historians and military histories I studied in years gone by in University involved his hope or desire to keep the N. Iranian Oil and Gas fields, take over the newly built single railroad in Iran, built by the US Army Corp of Engineers, and use the RR to move Soviet troops and engineers down to the Iranian Arabian Sea coast to build from scratch a Soviet Navy warm water fleet port.

Interesting history to "possibly" conclude with today's Russia getting porting rights at either or both Karachi and Gwadar. Gwadar of course was funded and built largely by China, so Russia getting their Navy port visit rights there might be questionable.
 
Bridge to victory

November 3, 1997
The Iranian

The following is an excerpt from "On Borrowed Wings" by Robert D. Burgener on the activities of the Allied forces in Iran during World War II. The first of a series of documentary videos on this subject -- "Tales of the Persian Corridor - Bridge To Victory; World War II supply route through Iran bridged colonial past and Cold War future, written and produced by Burgener -- is now available from the INTERNECT organization.

Video clip (1): Introduction to "Tales of the Persian Corridor" (RealPlayer format)
Video clip (2): The importance of the Persian Corridor as told by Lt. Col. A. George Mallis, U.S. Army (RealPlayer format)
Video clip (3): The equipment sent to Russia through Iran during the war (RealPlayer format)

It was the summer of 1941. Food shortages and inflation were the most pressing concerns for the average citizen in Iran. The war in Europe, which had begun in 1939 when Nazi Germany and its ally, the Soviet Union, invaded Poland; had spread west across the continent and south, to North Africa and the Middle East.

In May of 1941 the British had taken control of Iraq to safeguard their access to oil resources. On June 22 the Nazis, concerned about Stalin's aggressive annexing of territory in the Balkans which could threaten Germany's access to the Romanian oil fields; turned on their former ally and invaded the Soviet Union.

Iran had declared it's neutrality from the beginning. Its strategic location at the cross roads between Europe and Asia, however, made it vulnerable to both the European power conflict and, the Japanese forces which controlled Manchuria and in recent weeks had occupied Indo-China.

It was against this ominous backdrop that Reza Shah came to hand out diplomas for the graduates of Tehran's military academy. With great sadness in his voice, he addressed them as sons and officers of Iran. "Unfortunately this year you cannot take your month vacation upon graduation," he told them." You must go immediately to the regiment to which you are assigned."

"For your information, sons," Reza Shah continued, " our country is on the edge of very dangerous times."

In the summer of 1941 much of the world was already over the edge. An edge pushed relentlessly forward by the Nazi war machine in the west and Imperial Japan in the east.

Since the turn of the century, Iran had maintained a cautious policy of courting foreign governments as third powers to balance the influence exerted by the British and Russians. By 1939 that policy had resulted in Germany surpassing Russia as Iran's major trading partner. The economic facts, coupled with rumors and suspicion surrounding the large German enclaves in Iran; and Reza Shah's open admiration of Hitler's Aryan race propaganda, provided the pretext for a joint Soviet and British invasion of Iran on the 25th of August 1941.

Junior Lieutenant Mohammed Ali Sobhani along with 35-40 other new officers loaded onto a bus in Tehran headed for Tabriz, Azerbaijan to join the 3rd Division. At one of the check points along the route, they learned of the Soviet invasion from the north. "I remember as soon as we heard we were all very happy," Sobhani recalled, "because now we would be fighting our real enemy - the Russians."

It was a short and very one sided fight as Soviet armored units rolled into Tabriz aided by advance guards of fifth columnists and infiltraitors who identified key targets and eliminated them before any significant resistance could be organized.

Hasan Javdi, former chairman of the English department at Tehran University, was a child at the time and his parent's home was near one of the German trade missions in Tabriz. He remembers a young begger woman and her child who had camped out on the street in front of his parents home for several months.

On the morning that the skies over Tabriz were filled by black airplanes with red stars , the woman appeared in an officer's uniform at the head of a column of Soviet soldiers. That story is repeated in many variations as part of the folklore of the Soviet invasion of Iran. For Lt. Sobhani and the reinforcements, it meant withdrawal to Teheran and surrender.

By the summer of 1942, as Nazi units pushed through Ukraine and the Crimea towards the Caucasus, the first elements of American logistic and combat engineer units began arriving in Iran to form the Persian Gulf Command. Working with Soviet construction battalions, the Americans built a network of roads to replace the narrow trails that proved impassable to large trucks.

Lt. William H. Bird commanded one of the first American transportation units made up of White officers and Negro troops from the Illinois National Guard. "Our run from Andimeshk to Khorramshahr was supposed to take 10 hours" Bird recalled, "it was 135 miles, but there were 1,300 curves so it often took 15 hours or more."

The huge tractor -trailer rigs and the treacherous mountain roads overwhelmed this first batch of US Army Quartermaster drivers whose experience had been limited to civilian jobs driving delivery trucks in Chicago. The war department contacted the American Trucking Associations and through them the Teamsters Union calling for volunteers for a "secret mission."

At that time, most heavy duty truck drivers in America were exempt from the draft for military service because they were needed to haul supplies between factories for the war effort. Within a short time more than one thousand of these professional drivers had given up their deferments and joined the Army.

They arrived at Khorramshahr via Australia and the Indian Ocean with no idea exactly where they were going. The Pocket Guide to Iran, a small booklet published by the War Department began with familiar themes - Iran was a life line for supplies to the war front and a critical source of oil.

The highways and the Iranian State Railway became a vital life line from American factories, which were beyond the range of Nazi bombers, and the beleaguered Soviet Army, which could no longer be supplied as factories in Russia and Ukraine, were rapidly being destroyed by the advancing Nazi forces.

The aid program known as "Lend-Lease" which had allowed a neutral United States to provide war supplies to England, China, and the anti-Axis effort; expanded greatly after America entered the war in December of 1941. Some 4.5 million tons of war supplies arrived at the ports of the Persian Gulf for shipment north.

Although the total tonnage of American lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union amounted to only seven percent of the total supplies consumed by the Soviet Union during the entire war, Russian historian Alexander S. Orlov acknowledges that supplies received during 1941 and 1942 amounted to closer to 90 percent of what some front line units had to fight with.

Thousands of Iranian civilians played a role in the war effort from laborers for road building and drivers to skilled mechanics at the "little Detroit's" truck assembly plants at Andimeshk. In one year 648,000 vehicles were built in Iran for shipment to the Soviet Union.

The success of the vehicle and aircraft assembly facilities is a tribute to the imagination of the Iranian people and the ingenuity of American soldiers - most of whom couldn't speak Persian. The fact was, the Persian language did not contain a vocabulary of terms for the tools and procedures needed to assemble modern machines - and yet they did it and did it well.

The sudden availability of large quantities of lumber, salvaged from the crates used to ship aircraft and other war materials, created a building industry for industrious Iranians. Even the children became involved in a sort of cottage industry - straightening nails!

It is rather easy to get caught up in the excitement of a "war story" and the big picture of battles and heroes and loose sight of the impact of war on individuals who were innocent bystanders to the history- making events around them.

In her novel, Savushun, Iranian author Simin Daneshvar captures that tragedy as she chronicles the impact of the war and foreign occupation on one Iranian family. The food shortages, caused by British and Soviet forces buying up grain intended for the Iranian marketplace, lead to riots in several western Iranian cities. The growth of the communist movement, supported by the Soviet occupying forces, lead to further instability and confrontation when the war ended and the Soviet forces did not immediately withdraw from northern Iran.

The Persian Corridor, or Bridge To Victory as it was called in Persian, provided a vital link for war supplies in one direction while at the same time serving as a humanitarian passage for Jewish and Polish refugees, many of whom arrived in Iran by crossing the Caspian in ships that had delivered supplies to ports in Baku, Azerbaijan or Krasnovodsk, Turkmenistan.

There were no great tank battles or aerial dog fights on this front. Considering the number of double agents and the plight of refugees, an appropriate description might be "Casablanca East." This collection of memories of the men and women whose lives were thrown together by World War II or the Great Patriotic War as it was called in Russian, is not a well orchestrated chorus in praise of international cooperation.

It is, rather, an impromptu jam session in which, if we listen closely, we may hear the dissonant chords of our own mis-perceptions and prejudice set against a recurring theme of individual friendships and private acknowledgment of the public reality that, from time to time, we are all dependent on the kindness of strangers.
 
Here is a summary of Soviet Army attempts to seize Iranian oil and gas lands during and past the end of WW II in Iran.

The below quotations are found in the article:

THE INVASION OF IRAN BY THE ALLIES DURING
WORLD WAR II
Süleyman Erkan
Karadeniz Technical University, Trabzon, Turkey

The fact that the USA and Britain withdrew their soldiers from Iran in
compliance with the 1942 treaty and that the Soviets did not, gave rise to events in
1946 which are known as Iran Crisis. Many academic and politic establishments
accept the beginning of the Cold War period as these events. Of course, it is not to
possible to conclude that the Cold War would not have taken place if these events had
not happened, but it is a fact that they played an important role in its beginning.
However, until the Blocs were established, the Cold War was a struggle between the
USA and the USSR and this struggle began in Iran.
 
American Eagle: It seems something very big and strong was poked inside you. Your post shows a lot!
 
So in the context of why Russia and India will not be friends, can you please give a reason for the bolded part. I would really love to know in this context your logic for China and Pakistan being real allies.

Well, we've always backed eachother up in times of need and helped eachother out when we were struck by natural disasters. We've also provided Pakistan with military tech at good prices plus the transfer of technology. Even with the world looking down on Pakistan after the OBL incident, we continued to show our unreserved support. I don't think Russia will be too happy to sell India technology at bargain prices right? This highlights that the Russian-Indian relationship are in fact more business and political orientated than real.
 
I think Indians should rush to the Russian embassies and protest in disgurst then? Russians shook hands with Pakistan afterall and accepted their SCO membership application :rolleyes:

Why should we?

The Russians are our tried and trusted friends since decades.

They have been our allies in true sense of the word.

It is good that our ally is gaining a foothold in our enemy country. ;)
 
Why should we?

The Russians are our tried and trusted friends since decades.

They have been our allies in true sense of the word.

It is good that our ally is gaining a foothold in our enemy country. ;)

LOL if that is the case then stop being bitter about it and congratulate Pakistan on securing some lucrative deals and permanent membership with the SCO.
Funny how insecure some people have been in the last 24 hours :lol:
 
LOL if that is the case then stop being bitter about it and congratulate Pakistan on securing some lucrative deals and permanent membership with the SCO.
Funny how insecure some people have been in the last 24 hours :lol:

Bitter? How many posts of mine have you seen on this thread? lol

We have no reason to worry. We have made available to ourselves a few enormously potent weapons. Those which can bring down their whole economy and their country and they will but slowly.

In fact, the process has begun.

So I see no need for the insecurity for we have already secured the endgame.

Now don't ask me what those weapons are.

...and no they're not nukes.
 
Well, we've always backed eachother up in times of need and helped eachother out when we were struck by natural disasters. We've also provided Pakistan with military tech at good prices plus the transfer of technology. Even with the world looking down on Pakistan after the OBL incident, we continued to show our unreserved support. I don't think Russia will be too happy to sell India technology at bargain prices right? This highlights that the Russian-Indian relationship are in fact more business and political orientated than real.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the genesis and the history of the Indo-Russian relationship. Since I have been around on this planet to see some of it, let me try to explain in a very short way.
It started way back, and simply because India did not choose to be part of any camp, especially part of any anti-Russian camp. While what everybody here (including you) seems to be more taken up with the Military aspect of the relationship, actually it went far beyond that and had a bigger economic dimension. In those days India was short of hard cash (esp Dollars) and the West was not particularly enthusiastic to pass on technology to India. That is when the Russians stepped in. They helped to grow India's steel industry, helped with Indian Oil exploration and Refineries. So much so that when India nationalised the American Oil companies (which were bleeding the Indian economy, as well as most of the world, btw) the American oil majors promptly shut off crude oil sales to India. That is when the Russians stepped in and supplied crude to India. But except one refinery, the other Indian one were designed to handle American supplied crude, so the Russians helped to modify them to handle other crudes, while this was being done; they supplied petroleum products so that Indian industry would keep running. And so on.
Now the question was payment for all this. Deferred payment being part of the deals helped but was not a complete solution. So the Russians accepted Rupee payments partly (though the Rupee was not worth much then), but most innovatively they accepted payment in commodities. And of course there were grants. It was a big combination.

Around that time the transfer of arms hardware and technology started too. And the same innovations were used. The first Indian Foxtrot class subs were paid for by Indian banana exports and T-55 tanks got paid for by leather boots for example. And the Russians helped in any (and every) way possible. When Indian Air Force needed medium transports they looked at AN-26s; but they were not suitable for the hot and dusty weather and high altitude operations required in India, so the Russians modified them for the IAF as the An-32s and India bought them at less than $1 M apiece (an unimaginable price). So India bought over a hundred of them. Now those birds are fully amortised (long ago), and continually upgraded and will see service for at least a decade more.
Times have changed now, India has much more money in her pockets so now India is investing in Russia. India is a big investor (and JV partner) in the big gas project in Sakhalin as well as oil exploration with Russia in other parts of the world. India has invested in Brahmos in a big way, just as Indian cash has helped to revive parts of the Russian ship-building industry. Not least to mention the Russian nuclear sub construction (the Akula class). The clock has turned somewhat and India does not need to go hunting for "bargain prices" not least of all from the Russians. Now everything is negotiated with the Russians as with anybody else. And BTW, Mr. Lakshmi Mittal (who now happens to be the biggest steel company owner in the world) and his family cut their teeth around the Russian built steel plant in India. Now he has helped to prevent (among others) Russian steel plants from closing shop and thus preserved Russian jobs. So good begets good.

But the history endures. Just as the Indo-Russian relationship does, and in a much more evolved form. :)
 
You seem to be unfamiliar with the genesis and the history of the Indo-Russian relationship. Since I have been around on this planet to see some of it, let me try to explain in a very short way.
It started way back, and simply because India did not choose to be part of any camp, especially part of any anti-Russian camp. While what everybody here (including you) seems to be more taken up with the Military aspect of the relationship, actually it went far beyond that and had a bigger economic dimension. In those days India was short of hard cash (esp Dollars) and the West was not particularly enthusiastic to pass on technology to India. That is when the Russians stepped in. They helped to grow India's steel industry, helped with Indian Oil exploration and Refineries. So much so that when India nationalised the American Oil companies (which were bleeding the Indian economy, as well as most of the world, btw) the American oil majors promptly shut off crude oil sales to India. That is when the Russians stepped in and supplied crude to India. But except one refinery, the other Indian one were designed to handle American supplied crude, so the Russians helped to modify them to handle other crudes, while this was being done; they supplied petroleum products so that Indian industry would keep running. And so on.
Now the question was payment for all this. Deferred payment being part of the deals helped but was not a complete solution. So the Russians accepted Rupee payments partly (though the Rupee was not worth much then), but most innovatively they accepted payment in commodities. And of course there were grants. It was a big combination.

Around that time the transfer of arms hardware and technology started too. And the same innovations were used. The first Indian Foxtrot class subs were paid for by Indian banana exports and T-55 tanks got paid for by leather boots for example. And the Russians helped in any (and every) way possible. When Indian Air Force needed medium transports they looked at AN-26s; but they were not suitable for the hot and dusty weather and high altitude operations required in India, so the Russians modified them for the IAF as the An-32s and India bought them at less than $1 M apiece (an unimaginable price). So India bought over a hundred of them. Now those birds are fully amortised (long ago), and continually upgraded and will see service for at least a decade more.
Times have changed now, India has much more money in her pockets so now India is investing in Russia. India is a big investor (and JV partner) in the big gas project in Sakhalin as well as oil exploration with Russia in other parts of the world. India has invested in Brahmos in a big way, just as Indian cash has helped to revive parts of the Russian ship-building industry. Not least to mention the Russian nuclear sub construction (the Akula class). The clock has turned somewhat and India does not need to go hunting for "bargain prices" not least of all from the Russians. Now everything is negotiated with the Russians as with anybody else. And BTW, Mr. Lakshmi Mittal (who now happens to be the biggest steel company owner in the world) and his family cut their teeth around the Russian built steel plant in India. Now he has helped to prevent (among others) Russian steel plants from closing shop and thus preserved Russian jobs. So good begets good.

But the history endures. Just as the Indo-Russian relationship does, and in a much more evolved form. :)

Very informative message.

India has a non-aligned policy, but when it comes to Russia, its totally different story. Russia said they would always back India in any scenario and I hope India can do the same. Be it with loans or anything else.
 
You seem to be unfamiliar with the genesis and the history of the Indo-Russian relationship. Since I have been around on this planet to see some of it, let me try to explain in a very short way.

It started way back, and simply because India did not choose to be part of any camp, especially part of any anti-Russian camp. While what everybody here (including you) seems to be more taken up with the Military aspect of the relationship, actually it went far beyond that and had a bigger economic dimension. In those days India was short of hard cash (esp Dollars) and the West was not particularly enthusiastic to pass on technology to India. That is when the Russians stepped in. They helped to grow India's steel industry, helped with Indian Oil exploration and Refineries. So much so that when India nationalised the American Oil companies (which were bleeding the Indian economy, as well as most of the world, btw) the American oil majors promptly shut off crude oil sales to India. That is when the Russians stepped in and supplied crude to India. But except one refinery, the other Indian one were designed to handle American supplied crude, so the Russians helped to modify them to handle other crudes, while this was being done; they supplied petroleum products so that Indian industry would keep running. And so on.

Now the question was payment for all this. Deferred payment being part of the deals helped but was not a complete solution. So the Russians accepted Rupee payments partly (though the Rupee was not worth much then), but most innovatively they accepted payment in commodities. And of course there were grants. It was a big combination.

Around that time the transfer of arms hardware and technology started too. And the same innovations were used. The first Indian Foxtrot class subs were paid for by Indian banana exports and T-55 tanks got paid for by leather boots for example. And the Russians helped in any (and every) way possible. When Indian Air Force needed medium transports they looked at AN-26s; but they were not suitable for the hot and dusty weather and high altitude operations required in India, so the Russians modified them for the IAF as the An-32s and India bought them at less than $1 M apiece (an unimaginable price). So India bought over a hundred of them. Now those birds are fully amortised (long ago), and continually upgraded and will see service for at least a decade more.

Extremely informative tidbits. I'm bookmarking this post !
 
I think Indians should rush to the Russian embassies and protest in disgurst then? Russians shook hands with Pakistan afterall and accepted their SCO membership application :rolleyes:

Its only a SCO membership, even nations like Kazakhstan is in it and Tajikistan.

We dont mind Pakistan joining, only under 1 condition, China helps India get a UNSC seat. :azn:
 
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