Pakistan to build a Nuclear submarine

[ares]

Consider this, like you ..we too have been in nuke field for decades(had our nukes one and half decade before you had yours).
Infact we initiated our nuclear submarine project in 90s itself ...like you ..we got major help in miniaturization of nuclear reactor from Russians..hell even operated a nuke sub for three yrs ..but it is only two decades later(this yr) ..we will get our first nuclear submarine.

Nuclear submarine is not just about a miniaturized nuclear reactor ..there are literally hundreds support system that have to be developed right from steam turbines, shaft and gear assembly to fresh water generators and anechoic tiles for submarine hull.

Plus as of today there are only 6 nations in the world which operate a nuclear subs..such is their operational cost, that all these nations have a defence budget in excess of $40 Billion.

 

[farhan_9909]

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[TaimiKhan]

Consider this, like you ..we too have been in nuke field for decades(had our nukes one and half decade before you had yours).
Infact we initiated our nuclear submarine project in 90s itself ...like you ..we got major help in miniaturization of nuclear reactor from Russians..hell even operated a nuke sub for three yrs ..but it is only two decades later(this yr) ..we will get our first nuclear submarine.

Nuclear submarine is not just about a miniaturized nuclear reactor ..there are literally hundreds support system that have to be developed right from steam turbines, shaft and gear assembly to fresh water generators and anechoic tiles for submarine hull.

Plus as of today there are only 6 nations in the world which operate a nuclear subs..such is their operational cost, that all these nations has defence budget in excess of $40 Billion.

As said, Pakistan or PN is no fool to be going on such en devour without thinking about all the things you just mentioned. Nobody is saying we are gonna make the platform in 1-2 years, they have already given a 5-7 year timeline, which can go to a decade. So as said, we are not talking about doing things like superman does, but we have started to take a step in that direction after carefully thinking about which way to go and knowing that we have some of the capability now and will get others in the future to make such project a step.

I have no idea why you guys keep arguing that we can't do it, its not about reinventing the wheel, we have just started a project, who knows what happens in the future, what our economic conditions are, worse or better.

 

[ares]

As said, Pakistan or PN is no fool to be going on such en devour without thinking about all the things you just mentioned. Nobody is saying we are gonna make the platform in 1-2 years, they have already given a 5-7 year timeline, which can go to a decade. So as said, we are not talking about doing things like superman does, but we have started to take a step in that direction after carefully thinking about which way to go and knowing that we have some of the capability now and will get others in the future to make such project a step.

I have no idea why you guys keep arguing that we can't do it, its not about reinventing the wheel, we have just started a project, who knows what happens in the future, what our economic conditions are, worse or better.

I am not arguing you can not do it..I am arguing you can not do it 5-7 yrs.

Even if keel is laid down tomorrow, considering the past trends of nations bulding nuke sub for the first time, it will take you more than decade to induct it in the Navy.

As far economic conditions are concerned..though no one can predict the exact future ..but still on has to be realistic in his approach ..

Let us assume everything goes hunky dory ..Pakistani economy grows 6% every yr for next ten yr..assuming your defence budget keep pace with economy and also grows 6% per anum...your naval budget which stands at one billion dollars(aprox) today..will have doubled itself to $2 Billion(before accounting for inflation) ..Will it be enough, considering one nuke sub itself cost $2 Billion deploy(operating costs extra)?

 

[genmirajborgza786]

french technology. not indigenous.

try fitting those big arse reactors inside a sub...

Augusta 90-bs were purchased with TOT ( transfer of technology) plus infrastructure of manufacturing the subs thus helping Pakistan setup up the base & the know how to build a submarine so yes Pakistan has the technology to build its own submarines & build them, same is the case with the missiles,fighter jets,frigates & nuclear reactor's it doesn't matter whether one gets it or steals it or does reverse engineering what matters is the know how, the technology , setting up the base the base & from there gaining the expertise & ability to build one & as long as that is achieved the job gets done it its high time you realize that Pakistan has the capability to make them, in fact Pakistan has made them (remember babur cruse missiles,ghouri,shaheen,abdali,rad etc super mushak training fighter jet,Karakorum 8 al-khalid tanks,jf-17 plus work on ws-13 engines are also on the cards etc) & is making them as we speak with a strong defense industries

seriously.. ?? .lmao....so which frigate, which destroyer, which aircraft carrier, which corvettes has pakistan built indigenously..?

F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate purchased with complete transfer of technology & being jointly build by Hudong Zhonghua shipyard, Shanghai
Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works, Karachi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar_class_frigate

 

[Rafi]

Who knows = this may be our new sub

 

[Water Car Engineer]

the most difficult part is miniaturarizing the reactor(which musharaf said we got the capability of developing N sub)he must be referring to the N Submarine reactor

and thanks to france for providing us the infrastructure of manufacturing Submarines(agosta 90B in pak)

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------



Nuclear Submarine are class apart

the indian lease of N sub has disturb the region

I think the fact India is producing a whole line of them is more disturbing..

INS Arihant just being a demo.


So Pakistan decided to take the leap.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I am not arguing you can not do it..I am arguing you can not do it 5-7 yrs.

Even if keel is laid down tomorrow, considering the past trends of nations bulding nuke sub for the first time, it will take you more than decade to induct it in the Navy.

As far economic conditions are concerned..though no one can predict the exact future ..but still on has to be realistic in his approach ..

Let us assume everything goes hunky dory ..Pakistani economy grows 6% every yr for next ten yr..assuming your defence budget keep pace with economy and also grows 6% per anum...your naval budget which stands at one billion dollars(aprox) today..will have doubled itself to $2 Billion(before accounting for inflation) ..Will it be enough, considering one nuke sub itself cost $2 Billion deploy(operating costs extra)?

As said the time frame is debatable and also as said by some, if China is helping in this project, things might be done more quickly then anticipated. Yeah if we work all alone, may be in 20 years we get something, but if we start getting help of someone who itself is making such things already, the timeline is cut drastically.

And as for the cost, why is so hard for you guys to understand simple economics. What the US builds and operates does not means that others will get the same stuff at same cost. Why is China making good quality products at cheaper rates, why we call JF-17 a 4th gen fighter but available at a cost of half of what western option might be available, simple reason, labor is cheap here, in this part of the world. US buys things in dollars and it pays for the operational expenses in dollars, thus its their own currency. It doesn't means we would be getting the nuke sub for 1B$$, it may be for 400m$$ or may be 500m$$ and operational cost could be much lower too.

Do you have the operational expenses of PN subs ?? Even though the buying cost was high, but operational cost would be considerably low compared to may be French ones. And with more and more local production of spares, operational cost comes down.

So end is, its very much doable, but will need time and resources and good economy. And it won't be as expensive as what western options are, heck we are not even knwing what its dimensions and capability are, then how can we say its a 1B$$ sub, may be its much smaller in size and has limited capability compared to what US or other bigger nations operate.

And who knows the news is mistake, may be the navy is talking about AIP conventional subs but with nuke missile capability and someone translated it into a nuke-reactor sub.

My guess is, they are talking about a conventional sub with the capability of carrying nuke missiles, as that is the only platform which can be developed in the 5-7 year time frame.

 

[ares]

As said the time frame is debatable and also as said by some, if China is helping in this project, things might be done more quickly then anticipated. Yeah if we work all alone, may be in 20 years we get something, but if we start getting help of someone who itself is making such things already, the timeline is cut drastically.

And as for the cost, why is so hard for you guys to understand simple economics. What the US builds and operates does not means that others will get the same stuff at same cost. Why is China making good quality products at cheaper rates, why we call JF-17 a 4th gen fighter but available at a cost of half of what western option might be available, simple reason, labor is cheap here, in this part of the world. US buys things in dollars and it pays for the operational expenses in dollars, thus its their own currency. It doesn't means we would be getting the nuke sub for 1B$$, it may be for 400m$$ or may be 500m$$ and operational cost could be much lower too.

Do you have the operational expenses of PN subs ?? Even though the buying cost was high, but operational cost would be considerably low compared to may be French ones. And with more and more local production of spares, operational cost comes down.

So end is, its very much doable, but will need time and resources and good economy. And it won't be as expensive as what western options are, heck we are not even knwing what its dimensions and capability are, then how can we say its a 1B$$ sub, may be its much smaller in size and has limited capability compared to what US or other bigger nations operate.

And who knows the news is mistake, may be the navy is talking about AIP conventional subs but with nuke missile capability and someone translated it into a nuke-reactor sub.

My guess is, they are talking about a conventional sub with the capability of carrying nuke missiles, as that is the only platform which can be developed in the 5-7 year time frame.

Well atleast agreed one thing ..as far price is concerned.

I am not quoting you the price for US ohio class or Chinese Jin class..Russian Borie...they experienced manufacturers their cost automatically comes down as it gets distributed over decades of an R&D and mass production.

I will quote you the price for Indian arihant class which itself is Baby boomer..it costed us aprox $ 2.8 Billion along R&D.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Augusta 90-bs were purchased with TOT ( transfer of technology) thus helping Pakistan setup up the base & know how to build a submarine so yes Pakistan has the technology to build its own submarines & build them, same is the case with the missiles,fighter jets,frigates & nuclear reactor's it doesn't matter whether one gets it or steals it or does reverse engineering what matters is the know how, the technology , setting up the base the base & from there gaining the expertise & ability to build one & as long as that is achieved the job gets done it its high time you realize that Pakistan has the capability to make them, in fact Pakistan has made them (remember babur cruse missiles,ghouri,shaheen,abdali,rad etc super mushak training fighter jet,Karakorum 8 al-khalid tanks,jf-17 plus work on ws-13 engines are also on the cards etc) & is making them as we speak with a strong defense industries

PN has more then a dozen trained engineers as well as hundreds of trained workers force left idle from the Agosta program as well as state of the art machines for sub manufacturing, which all are lying idle or under utilized.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

lol... alkhalid is an improvised t-80..... first it was t-90II than t-96..... now t-80 which we dnt even have in service... we have t-80UD or T-84 with the same systems,welded turret,engine etc... Korakoram-8 is not just an export version of JL-8 but it has structural,avionic n engine changes aswell....... indians are getting really upset on the news of PAK building a damn nuclear sub... buy a conventional sub,no money,fake news,cant build them... thts our mucking issue... why the fuaark are you cryin abt it?serious a$$ hurt?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well atleast agreed one thing ..as far price is concerned.

I am not quoting you the price for US ohio class or Chinese Jin class..Russian Borie...they experienced manufacturers their cost automatically comes down as it gets distributed over decades of an R&D and mass production.

I will quote you the price for Indian arihant class which itself is Baby boomer..it costed us aprox $ 2.8 Billion along R&D.

Buddy, i am not a cool fan of Indian military projects, millions & hundreds of millions have gone into projects and in some of those projects even with decades spent, nothing tangible was produced or things came up with very high price. I am talking about specific projects and not saying you guys did not learnt anything for future, which off course is learnt.

As for the 2.8B$$, i am note sure we know the details of what went where and how much of the funds were utilized to its max and which part was a waste and could have been saved. May be the project could have been completed in 1B$$ or 1.5B or may be 2B. So with what i know of some Indian projects, the end result is not the best one with what has been invested. Plus may be you guys have more industrial infrastructure, paid more highly staff / workers or the overhead costs are high, so we don't how and where the 2.8B was spent.

As for Pakistan, we have used less resources and came up with good systems, even though i am not ruling out outside help, but that is the best way to go for us since we have scarce resources. May be we do the same way and use as much as foreign help instead of going 100% indigenous, just like how Indian programs go with 100% or more then 90% indigenous parts and research.

 

[Desert Fox]

Excellent news! Finally nuclear submarines of our own, instead of operating Chinese Qing class for a limited period.

So Pakistan is not getting the Qing class subs from China? But why?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is no call sarcasm!!
Every new technology has a steep learning curve involved in it ..for all major powers, it took decades of R&D and billions of dollars to build and deploy such subs (especially when their industrial experience and resources far outstrip your own) and it would be foolish assume, the case will different for Pakistan.

I believe TK was stating that criticism/discussion such as your post here should be the template, and not nonsensical flames/sarcasm.

Feel free to show skepticism, but do it as you have done here, with rational and logical arguments - that goes for both sides.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

So Pakistan is not getting the Qing class subs from China? But why?

Hes just sayin his mind... Qing class deal is still on... and so is N.sub.