Pakistan should be a Secular State

[Secur]

Try turning your head the other way too...there are EXTREMIST on the OTHER side of the spectrum too whom people dont talk about because they say YES SIR IT IS OK to EVERYTHING!

There is assumption and there is actions of the other person esp when they start coining oxymorons the same way as the media! Its like a carbon copy of what the media is saying rather than what the person is thinking....So all I say is use your coconut

I rarely get angry...annoyed maybe but not really angry because mind you I walk this earth viewing weird people rather than challenging them online

Nope you dont HAVE TO DO SO...All you have to do so is tell them the REAL Islam if they try to call something foreign as Islam...THAT is all ALLAH told the prophet and his ummah to do..To tell FULL STOP not criticize, not point fingers, not PAINT EVERYONE with the same brush and paint!

They aren't really the cause of the problem here , I can assure you that much . I know the extremist exist on the other side too , where do you see me giving them a No objection certificate to anyone here ? Is this another assumption made after reading a single post of mine ? But , I do not see them ruining and destroying my country like the religious ones , do I now ? No , they have a quite better history than their religious counterparts hence not the same criticism is meted out to them . Frankly , I want a middle path between both for Pakistan , not entirely religious and not entirely secular just as envisioned by the Father of the Nation - the best of the both worlds .

Please , point out such actions . I am starting to feel like , I am the topic of discussion and not the correct system for my country . I will be surprised here , if such things are even discussed properly by the Pakistani media .

That is , good to hear . What caused this one then ? Of course you do , miss Who am I to argue against the sun knowing the region , you live in ?

No , unfortunately , I have to . Despite knowing a great deal about my religion and realizing that the current so called Islam being practiced by Muslims and their Islamic states is anything but it . They still claim to follow it - even if the distorted version and misinterpreted teachings/orders/beliefs and the world and the majority understands it as such and rightly so . Because , they wont study the religion but the followers . I will give you a example - I can try to convince a person that my religion gives minority rights citing the ' Achtiname of Muhammad ' and other sources , but my dear countrymen can defeat me easy in my argument , by their actions in Lahore , over burning dozens of Christians owned houses , over just an rumor of blasphemy which would later be proven false . Do you see , where I am getting with this ? Do you realize the fallacy associated with ' not criticize - not point fingers ' approach ? I am sure that I never have comes across anything like that .

 

[Glorino]

Pakistan should have followed Turkish constitutional government.Secular democratic government of Pakistan with Islam as the state religion would have brought about a peaceful and harmonious and prosperous Pakistani society just like Turkey. Now religious bigots are running wild like headless chickens

 

[Secur]

Thank you so much, dear brother Secur for your touching reply. I merely opened this account as an observer, but every now and then end up posting. I didn't choose a nationality and I think the default is Argentina, or I used the first one that came. Truth be told, I am not sure what nationality I belong to or am loyal to anymore. As to who I am - a couple of things but I'm the grandson of the Joint Secretary of All India Muslim League, the late Formuzul Haque. Basically, before Pakistan was a 190 million strong nation with nuclear weapons, it started as an idea, and a small head office in Calcutta. If you entered that office, the first person you'd meet sitting at the typewriter was my grandfather. So at some level I have some filial affinity with Pakistan. For a while I was an assistant coordinator at PTI's research wing.

Concerning my researches, you can google the following (don't have 30 posts so can't post):

1. Marching Beyond Waziristan Hussain
2. Reviving the Ummah, A Diagnosis of our Circumstance Hussain
3. Insaf for our children Hussain
4. Defending Pakistan::Insaf for the Armed Forces Hussain
5. Economic Insaf: An Islamic Economic Framework Hussain

Its good to meet another who has pondered over these issues that seem to have haunted us for the last 60 years or so.

In addition, thanks to Br. Aeronaut for the pictures, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

You are most welcome , brother . So good of you to come here and its always nice to see new members keen on discussing different topics in a positive and contributory way . I see , well it doesn't matter , however its the forum's policy to use correct flags for recognition , so that is why I asked . That is good to hear , but you told us about a book of yours , if I remember correctly . Self less people , did they know how the same people , belonging to the nation they worked for , will behave and act in a disgusting way , as they do today ? I have no problems with PTI , but their approach is idealistic towards thing .

I will try to read the articles , in their entirety , whenever I get time , brother and do an analysis on it . Keep posting . Thank you , its always good to know that about fellow researchers .

 

[Ayush]

Welcome to PDF mate.

Thank you so much, dear brother Secur for your touching reply. I merely opened this account as an observer, but every now and then end up posting. I didn't choose a nationality and I think the default is Argentina, or I used the first one that came. Truth be told, I am not sure what nationality I belong to or am loyal to anymore. As to who I am - a couple of things but I'm the grandson of the Joint Secretary of All India Muslim League, the late Formuzul Haque. Basically, before Pakistan was a 190 million strong nation with nuclear weapons, it started as an idea, and a small head office in Calcutta. If you entered that office, the first person you'd meet sitting at the typewriter was my grandfather. So at some level I have some filial affinity with Pakistan. For a while I was an assistant coordinator at PTI's research wing.

Concerning my researches, you can google the following (don't have 30 posts so can't post):

1. Marching Beyond Waziristan Hussain
2. Reviving the Ummah, A Diagnosis of our Circumstance Hussain
3. Insaf for our children Hussain
4. Defending Pakistan::Insaf for the Armed Forces Hussain
5. Economic Insaf: An Islamic Economic Framework Hussain

Its good to meet another who has pondered over these issues that seem to have haunted us for the last 60 years or so.

In addition, thanks to Br. Aeronaut for the pictures, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Why do you want to become Secular now? You have pretty much destroyed your minorities. Christians, Hindus, Parsi and Ahmadis have been steadily leaving this country. Once you gotten rid of them you can have your full Taliban style Islam implemented in the Land of Pure.

 

[rubyjackass]

If i say that i reject your understanding of the above 'copy paste' from some blog, just on the basis of the fact that what you derive from the above extract is the work of your own mind, what would you reply to me?

If Jinnah wanted a Secular state, why would he not EVER use the word secularism in regards to, the ideological formation of Pakistan? - How do you answer ?

Why do you think that a 'Democratic,Egalitarian,Islamic Welfare State' model is 'Theocratic in nature' ?

I believe this is because the world 'secular' was not that popular those days. India introduced it much later in the 70s. The problem with 'Jinnah was secular' theory though is that the kind of equality he wanted can be found in some statute of Islam somewhere among all the medieval gore. So we cannot say for sure Jinnah wanted a secular country(except for the single speech to the Constituent Assembly, which needs to get due credit as it was delivered on the first day of the Assembly. But then what was all the communal politics for?).

If you ask me, the country went to the dogs when the liberals(they must have thought that it is just cosmetic) gave way to the moulvis and made the first line of the constitution 'Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him'. What it says there is that the people of Pakistan are also not completely free to decide their destiny. There is plenty of room to find discrimination and persecution in Islam if one chooses to find it. And that is precisely what the Taliban want. They are on the right side of the law and history here.

 

[d-fence]

You are most welcome , brother . So good of you to come here and its always nice to see new members keen on discussing different topics in a positive and contributory way . I see , well it doesn't matter , however its the forum's policy to use correct flags for recognition , so that is why I asked . That is good to hear , but you told us about a book of yours , if I remember correctly . Self less people , did they know how the same people , belonging to the nation they worked for , will behave and act in a disgusting way , as they do today ? I have no problems with PTI , but their approach is idealistic towards thing .

I will try to read the articles , in their entirety , whenever I get time , brother and do an analysis on it . Keep posting . Thank you , its always good to know that about fellow researchers .

Yes, I'm myself rather sad if not downright depressed about PTI, at least for now. Two books, at least one of which you can buy in hard copy on Amazon:
21st Century Islamic State and Reviving the Ummah, A Diagnosis of our Circumstance. They are also available as a free online download.

I would highly recommend, based on this topic:

1. Islam at the Crossroads, Muhammad Asad
2. This Law of Ours, Muhammad Asad
3. Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, Allama Iqbal.
4. Risalah Tawhid, Muhammad Abduh
5. Islam in History, Malek Bennabi (but its impossible to find this online, you could instead read "The Question of Ideas in the Muslim World")

PS: I've modified "my flags" to be a bit more reflective.

 

[Ayush]

I wonder where @muse sir is nowadays.

 

[Anotherangle]

Dear Moderators
This thread does not belong to Pakistan Defense and military forum. Please move it to Pakistan affairs forum. What great analytic ability of the secular that they cannot even see the the relation of the thread to the forum?!?!!!
In no way it is defense and military related; It is a political issue related to the people of Pakistan, their history and their future!

 

[bronxbull]

Pak ll never be secular.

 

[MM_Haider]

Pak ll never be secular.

one day it will.. and that day is pretty near!

 

[Vishwamithra]

Why do you want to become Secular now? You have pretty much destroyed your minorities. Christians, Hindus, Parsi and Ahmadis have been steadily leaving this country. Once you gotten rid of them you can have your full Taliban style Islam implemented in the Land of Pure.

I think pakistan should go for Shuracracy
As the visionary leader ZIA was proposing
youtube.com/watch?v=ne765z0v8YY

 

[bronxbull]

Secularism is a failure in every country with Muslims,so Pakistan cannot be secular ever.

 

[karan.1970]

Secularism is a failure in every country with Muslims,so Pakistan cannot be secular ever.

Not really.. But yes, in a muslim majority nation, its difficult to establish secularism on a long term, since Islam by nature refuses to recognize the validity of any other religion.. Surely there are exceptions, but not too sure how long they would last in their present form

 

[bronxbull]

It is definitely a failure in India.