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Pakistan seeks more visas from India for people visiting Ajmer shrine

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People like ajmer sharif were good people. They worshiped Allah and one Allah.

But people today went to shrines and they start asking the shrine to help them which is clearly SHIRK.

Going to shrine and praying for them is nothing wrong to do. But asking a dead guy to help them not allowed in Islam. This is the point Al Zakir wanted to say.

To NON MUSLIMS. I never commented of RAM OR GETTA or any of your lords. Please refrain from commenting on Islam if you dont know anything.
 
People like ajmer sharif were good people. They worshiped Allah and one Allah.

But people today went to shrines and they start asking the shrine to help them which is clearly SHIRK.

Going to shrine and praying for them is nothing wrong to do. But asking a dead guy to help them not allowed in Islam. This is the point Al Zakir wanted to say.
But this is exactly what i had said too with the little difference of calling the whole system as Haram. Its just like because of Talibans whole Muslim nation be named as Terrorists. There would be only few peoples who may commit Shikr in the Shrines but what about the other large population who only visit there to read some Qur'an, ask forgiveness from Allah from himself and the pious peoples of god resting in the grave.

Visiting graves is proven from the Sunnah of the Prophet and visiting the graves of the pious peoples is not against the principles of Islam :no:

Now lets get back to topic please why destroying this thread
 
People like ajmer sharif were good people. They worshiped Allah and one Allah.

But people today went to shrines and they start asking the shrine to help them which is clearly SHIRK.

Going to shrine and praying for them is nothing wrong to do. But asking a dead guy to help them not allowed in Islam. This is the point Al Zakir wanted to say.

To NON MUSLIMS. I never commented of RAM OR GETTA or any of your lords. Please refrain from commenting on Islam if you dont know anything.

mjnaushad never intend to insult Islam and if you feel like it I appologise..as i said i heard from one of friend that some section belives in praying in the shrines and all that right?if they belive in it why dont we let them do that? and also Al-Zakir branded one of Indian member as fake muslim..is any one got the authority to brand others as real muslim or fake muslim??or is it because he is Indian he is automatically become fake??
 
Issuing more and more visas do help, interactions amongst people do. But the indian establishment have to make sure that the incidents like the cricket fan one dont happen. I know Pakistan is not perfect, but there are thousands of Sikhs that come to Pakistan every year and yet we dont get to hear the incidents such as the one mentioned above. The indian psyche for some reason is more suspicious of Pakistan, where as in Pakistan it is completely the opposite when it comes to people to people interactions. Correct me if I am wrong some where.
 
Thank Heaven for the majority Muslim population who decided to remain in India. At least they can practice their religion in accordance with their basic belief in God Almighty.

This opposition of visiting Sufi shrines is based on struggle between Barelvi and Deobandis. Muslims in South Asia primarily Sunni following Hanafi school. These Sunni Hanafi now are split into Barelvi and Deobandi subsects. Both Bareilly and Deoband towns where these movements started are in India. Barelvi supported Pakistan movement while Deobandi supported Congress. The Barelvi are more mystical, Sufi followers and visitors to Urs and shrines. But Deobandi are more educated and have theological works. Deobandi triumphed as the government of Pakistan starting with Bhutto era adopted their version of Islam. Now Deobandis are on the march as majority Barelvis lose their numbers. Even in Bareilly, where the Barelvi movement started, the Barelvis are losing their followers to Deobandis. There was Hindu-Muslim riot in Barelly few months ago. The following article covered it.

www.outlookindia.com | Bareilly Burns Amid Barelwi Triumph

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Bareilly Burns Amid Barelwi Triumph
A sectarian contest within the Muslim community --a quest to establish Barelwi supremacy over the Deobandis -- escalates and ignites the simmering animosity between Hindus and Muslims in the sleepy, small city in UP
Arshad Alam

It is now two weeks since parts of Bareilly was placed under curfew. The trouble that started when a Juloos-e-Muhammadi procession (a procession taken out to mark the birthday of Prophet Muhammad) insisted on marching through a communally sensitive locality escalated and seems to have ignited the simmering animosity between Hindus and Muslims in this sleepy, small city in Uttar Pradesh.

Bareilly has nearly 34% Muslims but, within the city, the proportion is much higher. Within Muslims, it is the Barelwis who are, and have traditionally been, the numerical majority. Deobandis and other reformist traditions within Indian Islam are a minority here although their numbers are growing. Bareilly also has its history of shared spaces -- the land for one of its famous temple was donated by a Muslim; and both Hindus and Muslims are fond of their composite tradition of kite flying.

Perhaps the matter would not have escalated to the extent that it did, had the police been perceived as being even handed. First they arrested Maulana Tauqeer Raza Khan, one of the most important Maulanas of the Barelwis in India. Resident in Bareilly, Tauqeer Raza Khan is a direct descendant of Ahmad Riza Khan, who is revered by the Barelwis throughout the subcontinent. Some Muslims claimed this proved the partiality of the police as they did not arrest any other ‘prominent’ person from the Hindu community.

May be the importance of Tauqeer Raza dawned upon the police much later -- or the political pressure from above saw to it that he was freed. But the damage had been done by then.

So now we have a case that while earlier, the Muslims were protesting against the arrest of the Maulana, now it is the Hindus who are protesting against his release. It needs to be said that Bareilly has been a traditional seat for the BJP. It was only in the last elections that the Congress won from there. The release of Tauqeer Raza also saw the release of pent up feelings of the Muslims; and similar mobilization from Hindu organizations. The VHP and Bajrang Dal have deep roots in the city and their role in fomenting trouble cannot be discounted.

The problem got murkier because parties as varied as the Congress, the BSP and the SP want to court Tauqeer Raza. The result is going to be polarization between the two communities, and the net gainer, amidst all this, would be Tauqeer Raza himself.

It is important to know some things about him. Some years ago, he came out of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and formed a new board, styled as AIMPLB - Jadeed (or modern) under his leadership. Of course, there was hardly anything modern about this Board; it was as retrograde as the AIMPLB. The Maulana also runs an organization called Ittehad-e-Millat (Council of Muslim Unity), although given half a chance; he would pronounce those not following his interpretation of Islam as being not Muslim enough. Thus Deobandis and the Ahle Hadis are not Muslim enough and it is not permissible for Muslims to pray behind imams (prayer leaders) of such denominations. Can there be a better way to create Muslim unity? The Maulana is also infamous for offering a Rs five lakh reward to anyone who killed Taslima Nasreen, allegedly for giving a bad name to Islam.

And yet, at the same time, Tauqeer Raza and his group, the Barelwis, are a besieged lot. Some months ago, in a meeting of prominent Barelwis, Tauqeer Raza gave a call to all Barelwi Muslims to ‘liberate’ their mosques and madrasas from the clutches of the Deobandis. It is a fact of Indian Muslims, that while the Deobandis are the numerical minority, they enjoy disproportionate power. Prominent Muslim bodies such as the AIMPLB are dominated by the Deobandis and various governments have courted them with an eye on the Muslim vote. Locally, the Deobandis are much better organized and through their network or madrasas and movements such as the Tabligh Jamaat, they are winning over considerable sections of the Barelwis Muslims.

The Barelwi leadership thus has much to feel threatened about. With more and more Muslims becoming Deobandis, there is a real danger that the source of patronage from believing Muslims will decline which would make the Barelwi leadership obsolete. Within Bareilly itself, mosques have become the sites of an ideological battle with the Barelwis accusing Deobandis of usurping their mosques.

Over the years, the Barelwis have been organizing themselves to ‘defend’ the Muslims from the ‘evil’ influences of the Deobandis. Thus Tauqeer Raza’s insistence on a particular route for the Juloos-e-Muhhamadi should be understood as coming from a position of embittered marginality. The positioning of Tauqeer Raza thus should not be seen only in relation to the Hindu Right but, more importantly, perhaps as an expression of sectarian contest within the Muslim community itself.

It needs to be understood that the Deobandis have traditionally been opposed to the Juloos-e-Muhammadi, terming it as religious innovation. Thus the procession was not a Muslim procession; rather it would be better to understand it as an all Barelwi affair. Such processions usually become a show of strength for communities and in Bareilly the Juloos was an expression of the power of the Barelwi leadership aimed at the emerging threat of the Deobandis. However, in being transformed into a Hindu-Muslim conflict, Tauqeer Raza can now claim to be the custodian of all Muslims, something which he had wanted to be for a long time.

The price for such a religio-political ambition has been paid this time by the ordinary Muslims and Hindus of Bareilly. Doesn’t it sound familiar?

Arshad Alam is with the Centre for Jawaharlal Nehru Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia
 
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Its really a good decision cause if any one want to visit their holy place so no one have objection in this .
 
what kind of fancy shrines are you talking about? you have problem with Shrines or fancy stuff? :undecided:

Not all the time but here what I meant.

Me and you (unless you become some great saint in future ;) ) die and our grave will be call kobor(قبر‎) (Arabic).

When some saint or big politicans dies (like BB) then we build(subcontient) Islamic looking architecture around grave and call it Mazar (farsi) as if it has higher status. :lol:
 
Not all the time but here what I meant.

Me and you die and our grave will be call kobor(قبر‎) (Arabic).

When some saint or big politicans dies (like BB) then we build(subcontient) Islamic looking architecture around grave and call it Mazar (farsi) as if it has highter status. :lol:
But the real space both cover is 6 feet.....And thats reality. Let them do what they want. Like making big mazar will help any devil person. Or burrying a good man in small space will put him in trouble. its just wrong believe.
 
Not all the time but here what I meant.

Me and you (unless you become some great saint in future ;) ) die and our grave will be call kobor(قبر‎) (Arabic).

When some saint or big politicans dies (like BB) then we build(subcontient) Islamic looking architecture around grave and call it Mazar (farsi) as if it has higher status. :lol:

yeah i understand what you mean, ok man lets get back to topic :tup:
 
More visas and more interaction is good, duh!

Also, all those who have a problem with Pakistanis visiting Ajmer, please take up the matter with the govt of Pakistan instead of deciding who is a good muslim and who is not, its the job of Allah almighty and all those who claim to replace Allah do the greatest of shirk and haram. You have NO idea what is the intention, what is the iman of those who visit, just the same way you don't know the iman of those who visit a mosque and sit right next to you. So don't judge - As Jesus or Isa would say, so lay off pls.
 
There is no harm in visiting shrine; as long as you don't think or believe the buried person is God alike or can fulfill your prayers. Its all about belief!
All these great personalities did lot for Islam and humanity - there is a reason history is filled with their narrations and visiting their shrine is not just about going there and asking for your needs but to appreciate and remember how they lived and what their ideas about life / religion were.
Personally i would love to visit all the shrines some day and study history to broaden my knowledge.
Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti applied knowledge from Quran to real life and showed people how to live in harmony.
 
Mulla Nasrudin's stories are part of Muslim mythological tales.

Sufi Wisdom: 'All Shrines Are A Hoax' - Winds of Change.NET

From Shah's Caravan of Dreams comes a different sort of Nasrudin tale:

Mulla Nasrudin's father was the highly-respected keeper of a shrine, the burial-place of a great teacher which was a place of pligrimage attracting the credulous and the Seekers After Truth alike.
In the usual course of events, Nasrudin could be expected to inherit this position. But soon after his fifteenth year, when he was considered to be a man, he decided to follow the ancient maxim: 'Seek knowledge, even if it be in China.'

'I will not try to prevent you, my son,' said his father. So Nasrudin saddled a donkey and set off on his travels.
He visited the lands of Egypt and Babylon, roamed in the Arabian Desert, struck northward to Iconium, to Bokhara, Samarkand and the Hindu-Kush mountains, consorting with dervishes and always heading towards the farthest East.
Nasrudin was struggling across the mountain ranges in Kashmir after a detour through Little Tibet when, overcome by the rarefied atmosphere and privations, his donkey laid down and died.

Nasrudin was overcome with grief; for this was the only constant companion of his journeyings, which had covered a period of a dozen years or more. Heartbroken, he buried his friend and raised a simple mound over the grave. There he remained in silent meditation; the towering mountains above him, and the rushing ******** below.

Before very long people who were taking the mountain road between India and Central Asia, China and the shrines of Turkestan, observed this lonely figure: alternately weeping at his loss and gazing across the valleys of Kashmir.

'This must indeed be the grave of a holy man,' they said to one another; 'and a man of no mean accomplishments, if his disciple mourns him thus. Why he has been here for many months, and his grief shows no sign of abating.'

Presently a rich man passed, and gave orders for a dome and shrine to be erected on the spot, as a pious act. Other pilgrims terraced the mountainside and planted crops whose produce went to he upkeep of the shrine. The fame of the Silent Mourning Dervish spread until Nasrudin's father came to hear of it. He at once set off on a pilgrimage to the sanctified spot. When he saw Nasrudin he asked him what had happened. Nasrudin told him. The old dervish raised his hands in amazement:

'Know, O my son,' he exclaimed, 'that the shrine where you were brought up and which you abandoned was raised in exactly the same manner, by a similar chain of events, when my own donkey died, over thirty years ago.
 
Issuing more and more visas do help, interactions amongst people do. But the indian establishment have to make sure that the incidents like the cricket fan one dont happen. I know Pakistan is not perfect, but there are thousands of Sikhs that come to Pakistan every year and yet we dont get to hear the incidents such as the one mentioned above. The indian psyche for some reason is more suspicious of Pakistan, where as in Pakistan it is completely the opposite when it comes to people to people interactions. Correct me if I am wrong some where.

Dont send us your terrorists and spies in the guise of tourists or piligrims.

All genuine visitors and piligrims from pak are very much welcome to India.
 
same old debate. such religious issues are not to be discussed here due to rigidity in approach some might take when trying to get their argument approved.

thread closed.
 
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