PAKISTAN SEEKING 4 TO 6 NEW FAST ATTACK CRAFTS TO GUARD GWADAR

[maximuswarrior]

ALL VERY WELL BUT DOES IT MEAN YOU HAVE TO BE IMPOLITE, OR ATTACK A PERSON?

How one best conducts anti-piracy should lead the question of what military equipment one needs for it. It could be that employing 'Vessel Protection Detachment' (VPDs) consisting of privately contracted armed security personnel Private (Military and) Security Company ((PCASP) from a Private (Military and) Security Company P(M)SC might well be more usefull, thus negating the need for e.g. missile FACs.

YOU CANNOT EXPECT PAKISTANI FORUM MEMBERS TO RESPECT SOMEONE WHO RIDICULES AND POSTS NEGATIVE ARTICLES ABOUT PAKISTAN ON A DAILY BASIS. WE'RE NOT BLIND ON THIS FORUM. HE HAS CREATED A PERCEPTION WHICH DOESN'T FAVOR HIS OWN REPUTATION.

Having said that, Pakistan along with China will do everything required to safeguard their CPEC assets. Naval vessels are just one component of it all. Expect navy aircraft to be stationed as well.

 

[Penguin]

I can expect any member of this forum - irrespective of nationality - to abide by forum rules. I can expect any human being to approach a fellow human being with civility.

Fine, if you must, then don't listen to a moderate request for decent behavior on the forum.

 

[Solomon2]

No speedboat is outrunning the Norwegian Skjold class -

But that's not the sort of boat the PN is shopping for, is it?

Having a FAC provide an armed escort deters pirates in the first place, as they transit territorial waters.

A small FAC doesn't have a large enough crew to challenge pirates man-to-man and no one is going to believe that the PN will expend missiles designed to take down capital ships against mere speedboats. From the picture here (not in the original article, true) the FAC doesn't even have a deck gun. No deterrence against pirates there.

Larger FACs like the Israeli Sa'ar 5 can even accommodate helicopter facilities for HITRON or interdiction teams against go-fast boats.

Good for long range patrols to go after pirate mother ships, yes.

Larger vessels outfitted with RHIBs are still the preferred interdiction method for dealing with or capturing pirates and their vessels, but they aren't suited for the bottled-up near-shore waters of an EEZ....I think you're confusing the role of these vessels with another.

I have no idea of how "bottled-up" the near-shore waters of Pakistan's EEZ are near Gwadar. I am second-guessing here because of the incident earlier this year when many police were killed in an operation in Chotu because they used rowboats instead of the armored riverboats that were truly suited for the task.

They aren't going to be tasked with counter piracy, though they can be.

How the heck are you going to convince shipping companies to use Gwadar port? If you can't, it's going to become an embarrassment. Chinese-owned shipping is only maybe a third of world capacity and the Chinese themselves don't seem very interested - that's why the "opening" last month was mostly symbolic. True, the pipelines will improve matters a bit, but Gwadar should be more than an oil transshipment point, right?

 

[MadDog]

But that's not the sort of boat the PN is shopping for, is it?

A small FAC doesn't have a large enough crew to challenge pirates man-to-man and no one is going to believe that the PN will expend missiles designed to take down capital ships against mere speedboats. From the picture here (not in the original article, true) the FAC doesn't even have a deck gun. No deterrence against pirates there.

Good for long range patrols to go after pirate mother ships, yes.

I have no idea of how "bottled-up" the near-shore waters of Pakistan's EEZ are near Gwadar. I am second-guessing here because of the incident earlier this year when many police were killed in an operation in Chotu because they used rowboats instead of the armored riverboats that were truly suited for the task.

How the heck are you going to convince shipping companies to use Gwadar port? If you can't, it's going to become an embarrassment. Chinese-owned shipping is only maybe a third of world capacity and the Chinese themselves don't seem very interested - that's why the "opening" last month was mostly symbolic. True, the pipelines will improve matters a bit, but Gwadar should be more than an oil transshipment point, right?

You can call it symbolic if you like but Chinese have started using Gwadar, the export ship left another one came with construction equipment for their projects in gwadar, They arent stupid to be involved in construction of $1.5 Billion airport in Gwadar along side other projects if they arent interested in Gwadar. Gwadar's capacity as a port is unrivalled in the region.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

But that's not the sort of boat the PN is shopping for, is it?

No Norwegian Boat for Pakistan.

A small FAC doesn't have a large enough crew to challenge pirates man-to-man and no one is going to believe that the PN will expend missiles designed to take down capital ships against mere speedboats. From the picture here (not in the original article, true) the FAC doesn't even have a deck gun. No deterrence against pirates there.

Do you know what USNAVY use against Pirates?

I have no idea of how "bottled-up" the near-shore waters of Pakistan's EEZ are near Gwadar. I am second-guessing here because of the incident earlier this year when many police were killed in an operation in Chotu because they used rowboats instead of the armored riverboats that were truly suited for the task.

You can always use google.
Chotu gang was inland not near coastal cities.

How the heck are you going to convince shipping companies to use Gwadar port? If you can't, it's going to become an embarrassment. Chinese-owned shipping is only maybe a third of world capacity and the Chinese themselves don't seem very interested - that's why the "opening" last month was mostly symbolic. True, the pipelines will improve matters a bit, but Gwadar should be more than an oil transshipment point, right?

It would not become any more embarrassing than electing Donald Trump as President.

Do have a look at what China intends to make of North West China. Once that is complete Pakistani and Chinese shipping companies would attract other shipping companies them self otherwise their growth rate would be very high which could run shivers across the World's Developed nations dominance.

Now Stop Trolling

 

[Solomon2]

...They arent stupid to be involved in construction of $1.5 Billion airport in Gwadar along side other projects if they arent interested in Gwadar. Gwadar's capacity as a port is unrivalled in the region.

Chinese primary interest is strategic, to reduce impact in case Malacca Straits are denied them. That's why they need massive capacity. But the Chinese don't appear to be much interested in using Gwadar for normal commercial operations, hence the importance of appealing to other markets.

Do you know what USNAVY use against Pirates?

RHIBs and helicopters, I think.

 

[Fenrir]

No Norwegian Boat for Pakistan.

Right, but then Solomon simply missed the point. He wrote pirate speedboats can outrun a FAC - true and not true depending on the type - I provided a counterpoint. It's not a non-overlapping bell curve. There are FACs that can outrun and out endurance speedboats and speedboats that can outrun FACs.

Do you know what USNAVY use against Pirates?

Destroyers mostly. Looking at the vessels participating in Operation Ocean Shield (Ocean Shield is not the only counter-piracy operation the USGC or USN are involved in) off the coast of Africa, it's mostly frigates and destroyers... but there are exceptions too.

Two INS Car Nicobar-class FACs are also participating in counter-piracy efforts in the region.

From an armament perspective they're a bit of an oddity among FACs, being armed with guns and torpedoes, but not all FACs are armed with missiles.

In terms of near-US counter-piracy (though the USCG is deployed globally as well) the USCG uses cutters, some of which (Hamilton, Legend) are the size of frigates.

In terms of FAC-type ships, the USN used the Cyclone class and the USCG has the Fast Response Cutter.

The USN also provides counter-piracy and counter-smuggling support near Central and South America, so again, destroyers and carriers are on hand.

The US doesn't really operate true FACs anymore since they don't really fit into their doctrine of overseas deployment and the US doesn't have too many concerns close to home, enjoying a massive qualitative and quantitative edge in its neighborhood. The Pegasus Class were the last true FACs of the USN, but they continue to operate ships that are similar in function in the FRC and Cyclone classes.

Japan's Hayabusa is used to protect their waterways and shipping lanes, so it's not as if there's no precedent for FACs being used in such a manner. Our Skjold does the same.

Pakistan is not the US and should not be compared with the US. They have different doctrines, missions and situations that mandate different assets and usage. FACs are fine for securing regional and territorial waters and have been used in such roles. Counter-piracy too, as noted with India's involvement in Operation Ocean Shield.

FACs often overlap with patrol ships and corvettes in terms of size and role.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

RHIBs and helicopters, I think.

And how are they transported to the area where Piracy is being reported?

Chinese primary interest is strategic, to reduce impact in case Malacca Straits are denied them. That's why they need massive capacity. But the Chinese don't appear to be much interested in using Gwadar for normal commercial operations, hence the importance of appealing to other markets.

Strategic interest is always present. Look at the reasons why Singapore was created? Why Djibouti hosts bases of almost all western powers? What is the significance of Suez Canal? Why Philippines US bases not being closed? Why is Guantanamo Bay so important?

interest would develop over time when the Chinese development of North West China is complete.

 

[Solomon2]

And how are they transported to the area where Piracy is being reported?

A frigate, destroyer, or carrier is needed for the first 12,000 miles, I suppose.

Strategic interest is always present. Look at the reasons why Singapore was created? Why Djibouti hosts bases of almost all western powers? What is the significance of Suez Canal?...Why is Guantanamo Bay so important?

Seapower, not trade.

Why Philippines US bases not being closed?

These closed decades ago.

...interest would develop over time when the Chinese development of North West China is complete.

Why be so hung up on benefiting the Chinese decades from now rather than Pakistanis in the nearer future?

 

[maximuswarrior]

I can expect any member of this forum - irrespective of nationality - to abide by forum rules. I can expect any human being to approach a fellow human being with civility.

Fine, if you must, then don't listen to a moderate request for decent behavior on the forum.

You need to stop defending this troll. You are a knowledgeable and a well appreciated member of this forum. We respect and absorb your insight on certain matters. We don't question your sincerity even if you would pose critical questions because your credentials and history prove otherwise.

We fully understand why Solomon goes around posing off topic and sarcastic questions in certain threads. We also know why he goes around posting anti-Pakistan topics all over this forum. I'm sure you are well aware of this. He is insincere and has an agenda.

a) We don't require certificates from people who are obviously burning with jealousy and rage about the success of CPEC and Gwadar. Solomon has already proven that he has little knowledge about Gwadar/CPEC. Such sinicists have been doubting Pak China cooperation for a long time. This criticism is not just confined to Gwadar. It goes well beyond that. We can pick them out of the crowd in an instant. We have witnessed such cinics come and go. Solomon belongs to such a group of critics. We fully grasp where Solomon's love hate relation with particularly Pakistan stems from;

b) We will confront him as he deserves to be confronted. We will debunk his cinicism towards Pakistan. We won't tolerate his false allegations and questioning. In other words, we will exercise our right to confront cynical and unfounded criticism in every topic just like we are doing in this topic. This is not rudeness. This is bitter justice. There is no need to report him. We will destroy him with logic as we have been doing all along. The fact that he has to hide behind reputable members is enough indication that he has already lost the argument. Also, his persistence to go off topic casts further doubt about his intentions.

 

[royalharris]

CPEC is important for both pakistan and china. it will greatly boost the economy of pakistan and north west china.It would also benefit central asia nations.
Without excellent infrastructure, especially transportation system,there is no way to efficiently combine these parts of area into the global market. There is no way to win between the global competation,there is on way to industrilize your country. without industrialization,there is no way become economy and military really powerful.

And also, except china, no country would pour billions of USD to build infrasture in pakistan. it is the result of mutual benefit and good relationship. No one should doubt about it, especially pakistan.

Stand with pakistan means conflicts with india, to be honest, india is a large market, maybe it is not in chinese largest interest. but sometimes you need sacrifice interest for friends.

A powerful and prosperous pakistan is fullfill pakistan and chinese interest. but a lot of nations maybe not think so, you should clearlly understand.Take this good opportunity as a new engine of pakistan economy.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Right, but then Solomon simply missed the point. He wrote pirate speedboats can outrun a FAC - true and not true depending on the type - I provided a counterpoint. It's not a non-overlapping bell curve.

I know what the pirates use as well as what they can do. Speed is not always a weapon that can work. Some times better tactics win. If you recall some time back a cruse line used her sirens to out smart a pirate attack in the coast of Africa.

Destroyers mostly. Looking at the vessels participating in Operation Ocean Shield off the coast of Africa, it's mostly frigates and destroyers... but there are exceptions too.

Two INS Car Nicobar-class FACs are also participating in counter-piracy efforts in the region.

What I wanted Soloman 2 to understand was that US Navy uses RHIB's. Though these are part of a larger Surface Combatant Platform.
FAC would not be the only thing deployed, they would have some other type of support.

From an armament perspective they're a bit of an oddity among FACS, being armed with guns and torpedoes, but not all FACs are armed with missiles.

Ocean Shield is not the only counter-piracy operation the US is involved in, but its assets typically included USGC cutters, USN carriers and destroyers and axillary ships including the Afloat Forward Staging Base.

The USCG uses cutters, some of which (Hamilton, Legend) are the size of frigates.

What I understand is as technology is improving newer materials that are stronger then Steal but feather weight in comparison are becoming available. this is not just reducing the weight rather also increasing the space due to being thinner but tougher than the previous technology.

With new lighter material a similar size and weight ship can carry more firepower than its predecessor.

In terms of FAC-type ships, the USN used the Cyclone class and the USCG has the Fast Response Cutter.

PN also has ordered US sentinal cutters for the same task.

Japan's Hayabusa is used to protect their waterways and shipping lanes, so it's not as if there's no president for FACs being used in such a manner.

It is not just Japan who has used these. During WW2 FAC were used specially in the Pacific region to escort merchant ships. This is nothing new.

Pakistan is not the US and should not be compared with the US. They have different doctrines, missions and situations that mandate different assets and usage. FACs are fine for securing regional and territorial waters.

This is not true. One always compares to an other provided there is something to be learnt. PN can not compete with USA on the numbers but still use the same tactics with limited resources provided total training and high moral courage in available.

Seapower, not trade.

This sea power is protecting trade...

Why be so hung up on benefiting the Chinese decades from now rather than Pakistanis in the nearer future?

Rome was not built in one day.

USA is not old as compared with many other countries that have a history of millenia. Still USA is developing and supplying to others. The same is being done by creating CPEC.

 

[Penguin]

You need to stop defending this troll.

I'm not defending anyone. Using your post, I am calling on all here to make an effort and treat each other with civility. You can't change other people's behavior (easily) but you can change your own behavior (easily). We have an ignore button, we have a report button. You don't necessarily need to respond. Etc.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I know what the pirates use as well as what they can do. Speed is not always a weapon that can work. Some times better tactics win. If you recall some time back a cruse line used her sirens to out smart a pirate attack in the coast of Africa.


What I wanted Soloman 2 to understand was that US Navy uses RHIB's. Though these are part of a larger Surface Combatant Platform.
FAC would not be the only thing deployed, they would have some other type of support.


What I understand is as technology is improving newer materials that are stronger then Steal but feather weight in comparison are becoming available. this is not just reducing the weight rather also increasing the space due to being thinner but tougher than the previous technology.

With new lighter material a similar size and weight ship can carry more firepower than its predecessor.


PN also has ordered US sentinal cutters for the same task.


It is not just Japan who has used these. During WW2 FAC were used specially in the Pacific region to escort merchant ships. This is nothing new.


This is not true. One always compares to an other provided there is something to be learnt. PN can not compete with USA on the numbers but still use the same tactics with limited resources provided total training and high moral courage in available.


This sea power is protecting trade...


Rome was not built in one day.

USA is not old as compared with many other countries that have a history of millenia. Still USA is developing and supplying to others. The same is being done by creating CPEC.

Some folks consider Iblis the Habis as the epitome of "intelligence and rationality", so as the father of their race. But, he is a demagogue....

 

[MadDog]

Chinese primary interest is strategic, to reduce impact in case Malacca Straits are denied them. That's why they need massive capacity. But the Chinese don't appear to be much interested in using Gwadar for normal commercial operations, hence the importance of appealing to other markets.

RHIBs and helicopters, I think.

Chinese commercial shipping passes through straits of mallacca, so it has commercial as well as strategic significance for China. As far as others are concered, CPEC culminates in Xingjiang a province which borders 7 countries including Central Asian Republics , being landlocked it is a natural port for them , they can bypass Afghanistan via China , its more secure route !!!